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Old 14-11-2014, 18:00   #871
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Re: Rudder Failures

Smack, I do not see why you have to suggest that somebody is "too scared to go forwards" in the boat, or boats, that you show.

That just seems like an irrelevant insult made to create a bit more drama. I prefer lifelines as opposed to falling straight off the deck but would still sail on a boat without them. Suggesting that folks are scared rather than choosing to not be tossed across the cabin, and thus perhaps having to move from this thread to the Mayday thread is basically a weak statement to make.

I have been in a few bad seas in my time and I do appreciate lots of handholds when down below in them. I will agree that the pics of the other boats that you posted up are absolutely no better in that regard so may indicate where they think their market is also.

I think that you are a very intelligent and skilled poster in this debate and do not need to undermine that by asking loaded and crappy questions like the "scared" one.

Coops.
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Old 14-11-2014, 18:06   #872
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I think that you are a very intelligent and skilled poster in this debate and do not need to undermine that by asking loaded and crappy questions like the "scared" one.

Coops.
Well I'm a bit insulted that you think my questions are "crappy". So we're even.
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Old 14-11-2014, 18:11   #873
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Re: Rudder Failures

If that is how you see it, a competition, then you can certainly look at it that way if you wish to.

Coops.
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Old 14-11-2014, 18:11   #874
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Re: Rudder Failures

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The good new is that there are tons of great older boats on the market.
THIS is the crux of the bluewater debate. It seems many think ONLY older boats are "proper" boats.

That's exactly why I think the debate is dead. Bluewater itself certainly hasn't changed.
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Old 14-11-2014, 18:35   #875
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
THIS is the crux of the bluewater debate. It seems many think ONLY older boats are "proper" boats.

That's exactly why I think the debate is dead. Bluewater itself certainly hasn't changed.
I am just stating my preference as far as interiors go. There are many builders that still produce boats with nice tight interiors. For me it is not new vs old thing it is a design/construction/interior thing. If I had to buy a new glass boat, there are still boats available that would make me happy. Just not as many as say in 1985. I'm thinking a new Jonmeri 482, or maybe a Wasa 530. Those are pretty sweet.
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Old 14-11-2014, 18:45   #876
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
Smack I agree with you that Oyster and even HR's are not what they once were. I would not own any of them. We thought about a new HR but were schoked at how many changes away from a seaworthy boat and a long passage boats they have become in the last years. On that Boreal the owner decided he did not want the back rest with the hand hold over the top of back rest on settee I think he wanted boat for family charter in Med. As you can see on the boreal coming down the companionway one has sides one can be slammed into when coming down below in rough seas and that is a very good thing. But most of these pictures are sad indeed of boats where designers don't have a clue to safety.

...
Steve, this is the interior of a Boreal 47, the big brother of your boat. As you can see it has a very similar disposition regarding the standard Boreal 44 (the photo Smack posted):

It is no charter boat and the Swiss family that owns it is now cruising on your side of the pond:
Boreal 47 - NUVA

I don't agree with you that today's Halberg Rassy or Oyster are worse than their predecessors, i think they are better, faster, more comfortable to live in.

I think that there are here some confusion in what you and few others call a bluewater boat regarding almost all others sailors that owns them, I mean modern bluewater boats. I have no doubt that the ones that buy Oysters buy them as bluewater boats for extensive cruising. They are used so much for that that some years ago they have made a rally, I mean a circumnavigation rally with 25 Oysters, almost, if not all, modern Oysters:
Oyster World Rally | Celebrating 40 Years of Oyster

I don't know of any other brand that could have reunited 25 boats for a circumnavigation and there is not so many of them around. Yes modern Oysters are bluewater boats because they are extensively used as that and designed for that.

The difference between the ones that own the Oysters and you regarding what they want from a bluewater boat has to do with a different philosophy regarding boat compromises. A Oyster owner wants a boat able to cross oceans safely, is not particularly interested in sailing in remote places (Antarctic, Arctic and so on) and want a very comfortable boat with a very nice interior to enjoy life all around the world.
They know that even if they travel far away and cross oceans the time they will be cruising on the cruising grounds will be vastly superior regarding the time they will pass crossing Oceans and even if the boat is suited for that, it is not optimized for living with the boat sailing oceans but optimized for cruising and living aboard in nice places.

It seems to me that the standard Boreal are optimized to this kind of philosophy too, even if their aluminium hull and the advantage of beaching makes them more suited to cruise in remote places.

Boreal is a custom boat and you chose to make your boat more maximized to live aboard while offshore sailing then to live aboard while coastal cruising or at anchor. It is your choice even if believe that you will pass relatively few days crossing Oceans compared with the time you will pass doing coastal cruising and at anchor, but from there to say that yours vision of a bluewater boat is the only valid one goes a long distance. Your vision of what is the ideal interior of a boat that is used for bluewater sailing is a lonely one and that's why even Boreal, that are bluewater boats, don't come with an interior you like.

In fact the philosophy regarding the Oyster interiors is no different from mass market boats that are also suited for bluewater sailing, I mean generically mass production boats with more than 45ft. I know that is not what you call a bluewater boat but I believe you should accept that for many they are, since they are bought and used for that, and I am thinking on the Oysters and their impressive 25 boats circumnavigation.

I hope you will not consider my honesty as something more then a difference of opinion regarding this and I sincerely hope you stick around this forum. The difference of opinion does not regard your boat or the way you adapted it to your lifestyle and taste, but in having a monolithic vision about what should be a bluewater boat, a exclusive one.

Best regards

Paulo
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Old 14-11-2014, 18:51   #877
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by cpa View Post
I am just stating my preference as far as interiors go. There are many builders that still produce boats with nice tight interiors. For me it is not new vs old thing it is a design/construction/interior thing. If I had to buy a new glass boat, there are still boats available that would make me happy. Just not as many as say in 1985. I'm thinking a new Jonmeri 482, or maybe a Wasa 530. Those are pretty sweet.
Now see? I like the Wasa...



It has a very similar profile to my Hunter 40:



Sure, it's a dated look - but I like it.

As for the interior of the Wasa...



...definitely more high handholds than my H40:



But we have the fiddle edge on the shelf tops so don't need those high up.

And, honestly, I'd much rather have the vertical posts for holds instead of the high ceiling-level holds like some of these guys like. My kids would have a very hard time with those on the Oyster or Swan above.

So - we're not too far apart in terms of like a secure cabin.
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Old 14-11-2014, 19:18   #878
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Re: Rudder Failures

Smack, I would say your hunter 40 is exactly the type of boat design that appeals to me the most both inside and out. My introduction to cruising was on my family's 1981 Hunter 36. We would drool over the mid 1980s Hunter Legends.
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Old 14-11-2014, 19:43   #879
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Smack, I would say your hunter 40 is exactly the type of boat design that appeals to me the most both inside and out. My introduction to cruising was on my family's 1981 Hunter 36. We would drool over the mid 1980s Hunter Legends.
I just found your refit thread. Incredible work dude.
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Old 14-11-2014, 19:52   #880
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by cpa View Post
I am just stating my preference as far as interiors go. There are many builders that still produce boats with nice tight interiors. For me it is not new vs old thing it is a design/construction/interior thing. If I had to buy a new glass boat, there are still boats available that would make me happy. Just not as many as say in 1985. I'm thinking a new Jonmeri 482, or maybe a Wasa 530. Those are pretty sweet.
I don't think they are still made or at least that any have been made on the last 10 years. they still have web sites but Wasa is basically a repair shipyard and look at the pictures of the Jonmeri: if they were on paper they would be yellow Their last model come out in 1988.
HOME - Wasa Yachts
JONMERI, YACHT BOATS

Curiously about 18 years ago I was interested on the Wasa Atlantic. I contacted them and the price was a nice one and they had a used with few years for sale. I believe that they were not selling boats at that time and were quite willing to lower the price. Their last model had come to the market in 1987 (almost 10 years before), but even if the Atlantic was a 1983 model it was kind of a classic boat. It was fast and beautiful. It had the interior space of a modern 38ft but then I didn't need more. what stopped me was the big costs of having a 51ft boat, even if with the interior size of a 38ft boat. Also the resale value was very low, I mean only I crazy guy like me was interested on an old beautiful fast design and I would lose a lot of money if I sold the boat
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Old 14-11-2014, 20:58   #881
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I just found your refit thread. Incredible work dude.
Thanks! It has been fun so far.
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Old 14-11-2014, 21:19   #882
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Re: Rudder Failures

Smackdaddy, do you think capsize ratio is an important factor for a bluewater boat?

Run the numbers on your boat compared to some of the others that have been mentioned. Make your own judgement.

Here is the Hunter 40 Legend data:

HUNTER 40 LEGEND sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

You can find any comparable boat on that site, along with their numbers.

Then run them through this calculator, and assess.

Rate Your Boat-gosail.com
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Old 14-11-2014, 21:27   #883
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I don't think they are still made or at least that any have been made on the last 10 years. they still have web sites but Wasa is basically a repair shipyard and look at the pictures of the Jonmeri: if they were on paper they would be yellow Their last model come out in 1988.
HOME - Wasa Yachts
JONMERI, YACHT BOATS

Curiously about 18 years ago I was interested on the Wasa Atlantic. I contacted them and the price was a nice one and they had a used with few years for sale. I believe that they were not selling boats at that time and were quite willing to lower the price. Their last model had come to the market in 1987 (almost 10 years before), but even if the Atlantic was a 1983 model it was kind of a classic boat. It was fast and beautiful. It had the interior space of a modern 38ft but then I didn't need more. what stopped me was the big costs of having a 51ft boat, even if with the interior size of a 38ft boat. Also the resale value was very low, I mean only I crazy guy like me was interested on an old beautiful fast design and I would lose a lot of money if I sold the boat
Last I heard Maestro was building the Jonmeri line. I am not sure if the quality is still there and you might be right it was maybe 10 years ago when I was looking at them. I spent a bit of time with the Jonmeri Rep in Connecticut and fell in love with them there. I spent some time on a few 40s and a 482. You might be right about Wasa, I got some info back in the early 2000s from them and the website was the exact same.

That's a great story about the Wasa Atlantic. I used to sail against one back in 1990s and it looked so sweet. Back then, I was sailing on a pretty tricked out Henderson SR33. I remember it was blowing maybe 35 and we were reaching/surfing at 12-15 knots in a Gulf of Mexico race in the SR (basically holding on for dear life), and they fly by no one on the rail and it looked like they were eating a five course meal in the cockpit. We were all pretty envious. A few years later, I toured the boat, as it was for sale and fell in love. I love sailing thin boats. You are right about the interior space. A bit snug for a 50 foot boat and the 50 foot boat expenses.
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Old 14-11-2014, 21:45   #884
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Smackdaddy, do you think capsize ratio is an important factor for a bluewater boat?

Run the numbers on your boat compared to some of the others that have been mentioned. Make your own judgement.

Here is the Hunter 40 Legend data:

HUNTER 40 LEGEND sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

You can find any comparable boat on that site, along with their numbers.

Then run them through this calculator, and assess.

Rate Your Boat-gosail.com
Sure it's important. I think mine comes in at around 2.06, which is a little high. Under 2 is better from what I understand.

Why? Are you worried?

(PS - I have no intention of taking my own older Hunter around Cape Horn if that's what you were wondering. But have I told you about that Hunter 49...?)
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Old 14-11-2014, 21:46   #885
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Smackdaddy, do you think capsize ratio is an important factor for a bluewater boat?

Run the numbers on your boat compared to some of the others that have been mentioned. Make your own judgement.

Here is the Hunter 40 Legend data:

HUNTER 40 LEGEND sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

You can find any comparable boat on that site, along with their numbers.

Then run them through this calculator, and assess.

Rate Your Boat-gosail.com


I get this...
Results:
Sail area to displacement (SAD): 19
Displacement to length: 237
Length to beam: 3.08
Theoretical hull speed: 7.58 knots
Capsize ratio: 2.01
Waterplane area: 729.6 ft2
Ballast to displacement: 45%
Comfort Ratio: 45

Hunter legend 40.
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