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Old 14-11-2014, 15:44   #856
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
I can see two the vertical poles between the galley and saloon but cannot see any forward of those to be honest.

Coops.
So you guys prefer the "bluewater" handholds of the Swan 53?



Or the single overhead in the Oyster 575?

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Old 14-11-2014, 16:06   #857
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
No, no tank testing, at least now. I am quite sure that the cheeki rafiki is going to be analysed by the technical commission (as well as the other similar accident with a First) if those accidents did not happen on the sequence of a previous damage due to groundings, the rules would change demanding more exigent specifications for the structure and fixation of keels. That's how the RCD works and they have been made this on the last 20 years, improving the safety of boats. Do you think that is useless?

Ouchh dont think so , the evidences are under thounsands feet deep in the blue, i think a proper offshore boat no matter what need to be able to sustain a grounding or 2 or 3 and dont put the boat and crew at risk of keel lost, since the Smart NA in house at Beneteau decide to set the keel studs in the flat bilge área with Mickey mouse backing plates i dont see any reason why this boats cant fail again and again.. and again i dont see any reference in the RCD about minimun standars in construction practiques, hull scantligs, or anything related, i want to see a link if someone have one , i cant found nothing, yes i can see the new regulations about enviroment ....

If they dont test the hulls in a tank test site, how the cropp know if the new beamy hulls are seaworthy for offshore sailing, since big cargo ships and tankers and another big beasts are required to do tank tests analisys ? i think they do tank testing, and i think is the NA who do that, otherwise sounds crazy to sell a new boat without prior evaluations about estability , etc...

Regarding if i think the RCD is useless or not, i will say no, incomplete yes, another turn in the screw to get more profit,,, yes, Spain own regulations are the winner in screw owners, cruisers and bussines with regulations , some of this new laws dont make any sense at all regarding sailboats.

If you look up there , 5 posts above, the picture show a beamy boat with no hand holds at all , at least i dont see nothing, the refrigerator installed in a weird way, category A... really funny...
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Old 14-11-2014, 16:09   #858
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
...

I, for one, would always try to hunt down the best boat I can afford and sail it and fail it rather than say 'what the hell, this is how they are being built right now' and go for a plastic fantastic....
b.
I agree with you specially in what refers to afford. I agree that with $200000 you can buy an used better boat than a new one (for that price), one that would need more maintenance but a better boat. But if you have no problems of budget, or if you have $800 000 then you could certainly buy a better new boat than an used one, at least regarding the size you probably want.

There are some lucky guys, like Steve and his Boreal43, that have the money to buy just what they want and there are lot's of them because there are lots of expensive boats of all kinds being sold each year. I regret not to be one of them, even if I am satisfied with what I have, I could always have a better boat since they are better each year, or to be more correct, each 5 years make a significant difference and that has nothing to do with plastic fantastic (probably I would have an aluminium or carbon one) but with design evolution: It never stops
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Old 14-11-2014, 16:12   #859
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Re: Rudder Failures

Better a single row than nothing, by the way the swan have a single long row hand hold, zoom in Smack !!!, seems your problem is you want to see what you want to see ... is White in the roof..
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Old 14-11-2014, 16:16   #860
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
...
If they dont test the hulls in a tank test site, how the cropp know if the new beamy hulls are seaworthy for offshore sailing, since big cargo ships and tankers and another big beasts are required to do tank tests analisys ? i think they do tank testing, and i think is the NA who do that, otherwise sounds crazy to sell a new boat without prior evaluations about estability , etc...
..
It is amazing as someone on the boat business know so little about boat design. I assure you that not many boats are tested on tanks, most that are for perfecting performance, mostly big race boats....and yet they know not only how the boat will behave but can determinate the speed on all circumstances and points of sail with a decimal precision. The energy needed to capsize it, what is the righting force the boat is making when is knocked down at 90º and a huge amount more of information like the force each piece of the boat is subjected on a given situation. That's why a sailboat today is not designed only by a NA but by a multi discipline team. They have more kind of scientists than yard guys.
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Old 14-11-2014, 16:39   #861
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Better a single row than nothing, by the way the swan have a single long row hand hold, zoom in Smack !!!, seems your problem is you want to see what you want to see ... is White in the roof..
Is that the Swan 53? I don't think so. Who's trying to see what they want to see?

Here's the Hunter 50...



Are you guys really that scared that you can't make it through this boat in a seaway without hurting yourselves? Whereas with the Swan 53 above you'd be just fine?

Neil, I don't think you're talking about the same stuff stevew is talking about. Here's the interior of the Boreal 44:

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Old 14-11-2014, 16:46   #862
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So you guys prefer the "bluewater" handholds of the Swan 53?



Or the single overhead in the Oyster 575?

Smack you spoil it. I wanted to say that it was not fair to be showing images of a performance cruiser like the Swan 60 and that you should show pictures of really bluewater boats, family boats, like the Oyster and The Gunfleet 58.

Here you have the new Oyster 625 that was elected European boat of the year:


And the Gunfleet 58, not a very nice interior but a hell of a cruiser that made an amazingly fast ARC last year.

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Old 14-11-2014, 17:05   #863
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Take a look at the video of the Hunter sailboat I was talking about, (youtube, Hunter46 sailboat for sale, Buzz Stoddard) At 10min.40sec. Buzz shows the companion way doors, shocking indeed, you will loose your boat for sure in a knockdown. At 14:50 it does show a hand hold at about the right hight but they are too far away and would have to be strait armed in order to hold onto. At 15:25 Buzz tells us this is a class A boat ready to go offshore.
Oh yeah, Buzz! That guy is freakin' hilarious. Check out this video of him selling the Jeanneau 39i. Scroll forward to about 3:15 and watch as he educates the world on the Class A rating:



That's right! I told you guys!!! That Jeanneau "can be sailed in a hurricane with 9 people on board"!!!

Some of the best comedy on YouTube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
Somewhere in this Video they show the companionway and it has an SS rail about one foot higher than the companionway stairs. This is not for Bluewater sailing even in fairly calm waters.To have a proper companionway you should have bulkeds on both sides so your shoulders can bang into them or brace yourself going down the stairs with your back to the interior. The way this boat is designed ones upper body weight is going to send you over those one foot high rails and your going to get hurt more than likely in the fall.
Well, then the Oyster is out too. Not "proper".

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Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
Smack, I'm not trying to sell my boat to anyone and by the way it is not perfect. But I am trying to show you some differences in what makes a bluewater boat and one intended for other purposes. I don't give a damn that people sail them everywhere, Sailing offshore is serious stuff some of the time and when it is you need the best because sooner or later if you don't something serious just might fail where it would not on a boat built for the conditions.
I understand that. But as shown in most of the new designs of these traditionally bluewater brands, the stuff you think is required to "make a bluewater boat" is less and less present. Yet, it's a bluewater boat.

My point is, I have absolutely no problem with you or your boat choice. Your Boreal is undoubtedly a very, very capable expedition-level yacht. Complete respect for that. But there are MANY other boats out there, plying bluewater right along with you, that are very different than your standards of "proper". And they do just fine.
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Old 14-11-2014, 17:07   #864
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Smack you spoil it. I wanted to say that it was not fair to be showing images of a performance cruiser like the Swan 60 and that you should show pictures of really bluewater boats, family boats, like the Oyster and The Gunfleet 58.

Here you have the new Oyster 625 that was elected European boat of the year:


And the Gunfleet 58, not a very nice interior but a hell of a cruiser that made an amazingly fast ARC last year.

Definitely NOT bluewater boats. Heh-heh.
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Old 14-11-2014, 17:22   #865
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Is that the Swan 53? I don't think so. Who's trying to see what they want to see?

Here's the Hunter 50...



Are you guys really that scared that you can't make it through this boat in a seaway without hurting yourselves? Whereas with the Swan 53 above you'd be just fine?

Neil, I don't think you're talking about the same stuff stevew is talking about. Here's the interior of the Boreal 44:

Smack I agree with you that Oyster and even HR's are not what they once were. I would not own any of them. We thought about a new HR but were schoked at how many changes away from a seaworthy boat and a long passage boats they have become in the last years. On that Boreal the owner decided he did not want the back rest with the hand hold over the top of back rest on settee I think he wanted boat for family charter in Med. As you can see on the boreal coming down the companionway one has sides one can be slammed into when coming down below in rough seas and that is a very good thing. But most of these pictures are sad indeed of boats where designers don't have a clue to safety.

I'm done here on Cr for the most part, my wife is giving me hell for even being in this discussion, thinks I may hurt someones feelings about their boat and she is probably right. Good luck and I've enjoyed the thread.
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Old 14-11-2014, 17:33   #866
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Re: Rudder Failures

No worries Steve. No one's feelings are hurt at all. It's been great talking with you.
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Old 14-11-2014, 17:41   #867
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Re: Rudder Failures

I am not a fan of most new boats down below. Even the high end builders choose trendy flash over a proper seagoing interior. It almost seems like they are trying to appeal to one specific type of customer. But, they are in the business to sell boats. The good new is that there are tons of great older boats on the market.
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Old 14-11-2014, 17:50   #868
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Once again, using your logic, an Albin Vega 27' is a serious offshore craft, because Jarle Andhoy and the berserkers sailed one to the Antarctic and back, crossing Drake Passage twice, a far more demanding passage than the trip around the horn, which can be quite mellow if one sticks to the inside...
I think one needs to give serious respect to the capabilities of the Albin Vega 27.

The Albin Vega has a fairly good reputation for handling bluewater.

A couple of reviews:

Albin Vega Cruising Yacht Review

The Albin Vega 27 Sailboat : Bluewaterboats.org

This is also the boat that Matt Rutherford did his trip around the America's nonstop.

Solo Around the America's Under Sail | An audacious attempt at sailing the Northwest Passage and circumnavigating entirety of both continents, to benefit Chesapeake Region Accessible Boating
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Old 14-11-2014, 17:52   #869
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Really? You see NO handholds?
Nope, and way to many edges.
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Old 14-11-2014, 17:57   #870
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Nope, and way to many edges.
Heh. Okay.
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