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Old 12-11-2014, 14:42   #766
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Re: Rudder Failures

[QUOTE=smackdaddy;1676242]There have been "catastrophic failures" of virtually every boat brand out there. Unless you have real comparative numbers, this means absolutely nothing.

I started this thread to try to get some of those numbers - for real. Thus far we have a single Bene 50 whose rudder assembly failed catastrophically causing it to sink. Of course, all the previous damage and questionable repair to this boat prior to that failure makes any takeway from this incident meaningless.

Look at last year's Salty Dawg Rally fiasco with 100+ boats participating. Here's the monohull failure count:

Alden 54 loses rudder.

I don't think there are statistics showing how many failures are on what boats so our only way of sort of showing this is by those who spend many hours around ports where passage making boats show up yearly or do repair on many of these boats. As I said in my earlier post this year alone we had three boats that came in with rudder failure and all were the brand most mentioned here. As an experienced sailor even if I was given one of these boats new or old I would not feel comfortable sailing offshore. Sure I have a really good chance of making it as crossing oceans rarely challenge Everest as a dangerous thing to do. But I'd be very on edge in 5 meter seas for 6 days and 35 to 40 knots of wind let alone a full gale. Even sailing a boat made for ocean crossings puts me constantly on edge and I don't get much sleep in these conditions. Those boats you mentioned maybe were not cared for well, I met the sailors of the three I mentioned and at least two of them were experienced sailors who I'm sure kept their boat in good order as a matter of fact I know they did and both said they did not hit anything that their rudders failed in an ordinary extended gale off Morocco, both had sailed their boats across the Atlantic before. If anyone wants to sail one of these boats so often mentioned across an ocean that is their right. But I wonder how one can without being at least on edge the entire passage, what fun is that! Unless they just don't know that they are sailing a boat that is really built for less strenuous sailing which I agree many do not. When the S hits the fan which it sometimes does then Everest comes into play. I don't want to loose my life in such a hideous way, making the odds better in my favor at least helps. Is there proof? I don't know I have seen many boats fail over the forty years of sailing to far off places most were in poor condition but over the last 20 most have been from boats that are designed and made for regular sailing and enjoyment that we are having this informative discussion about. Observation is the only thing I can go on in this case and I believe in my observations.

And thanks to all who have educated me of glass work, very interesting indeed.

Cheers and may the big guy be with all that do crossing no matter what boat they sail.
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Old 12-11-2014, 14:42   #767
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Re: Rudder Failures

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There have been catastrophic failures of these No 1 selling boat brands. There are long threads on CF about that which is most likely what prompted this thread. So I think it is not the best argument to start talking about what percentage of sailors have to die before we can agree whether or not certain construction methods are adequate.
How many in 15 000 boats (on the last 10 years)? I know of much more expensive quality boats that had big problems and the number of boats produced by those brands are more than 200 or 300 times less. Not saying that has any relevance of how those quality boats were built. I am saying that the number of Beneteaus with problems are insignificant regarding the total number, to consider them badly built or unsafe. Regarding the most talked case, that Oceanis 50 that boat had been grounded and badly repaired. What that proves?
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Old 12-11-2014, 14:46   #768
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Re: Rudder Failures

Hahaha Smack, lol, take a break mate , sorry dude, take it sporty hahah... hey hey....
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Old 12-11-2014, 14:53   #769
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Re: Rudder Failures

[QUOTE=stevewrye;1676302]
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
There have been "catastrophic failures" of virtually every boat brand out there. Unless you have real comparative numbers, this means absolutely nothing.

I started this thread to try to get some of those numbers - for real. Thus far we have a single Bene 50 whose rudder assembly failed catastrophically causing it to sink. Of course, all the previous damage and questionable repair to this boat prior to that failure makes any takeway from this incident meaningless.

Look at last year's Salty Dawg Rally fiasco with 100+ boats participating. Here's the monohull failure count:

Alden 54 loses rudder.

I don't think there are statistics showing how many failures are on what boats so our only way of sort of showing this is by those who spend many hours around ports where passage making boats show up yearly or do repair on many of these boats. As I said in my earlier post this year alone we had three boats that came in with rudder failure and all were the brand most mentioned here. As an experienced sailor even if I was given one of these boats new or old I would not feel comfortable sailing offshore. Sure I have a really good chance of making it as crossing oceans rarely challenge Everest as a dangerous thing to do. But I'd be very on edge in 5 meter seas for 6 days and 35 to 40 knots of wind let alone a full gale. Even sailing a boat made for ocean crossings puts me constantly on edge and I don't get much sleep in these conditions. Those boats you mentioned maybe were not cared for well, I met the sailors of the three I mentioned and at least two of them were experienced sailors who I'm sure kept their boat in good order as a matter of fact I know they did and both said they did not hit anything that their rudders failed in an ordinary extended gale off Morocco, both had sailed their boats across the Atlantic before. If anyone wants to sail one of these boats so often mentioned across an ocean that is their right. But I wonder how one can without being at least on edge the entire passage, what fun is that! Unless they just don't know that they are sailing a boat that is really built for less strenuous sailing which I agree many do not. When the S hits the fan which it sometimes does then Everest comes into play. I don't want to loose my life in such a hideous way, making the odds better in my favor at least helps. Is there proof? I don't know I have seen many boats fail over the forty years of sailing to far off places most were in poor condition but over the last 20 most have been from boats that are designed and made for regular sailing and enjoyment that we are having this informative discussion about. Observation is the only thing I can go on in this case and I believe in my observations.

And thanks to all who have educated me of glass work, very interesting indeed.

Cheers and may the big guy be with all that do crossing no matter what boat they sail.
Agree, thats a fact, the internet show us just a minor percentage of failures, only where there is something really serious with the loss of lifes or something really wrong, i recommend to anyone interested in this matter to take a tour around boatyard and see it by yourself, ask the yard pros and make conclusions, at the end this is the people doing repairs in boats.
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Old 12-11-2014, 14:57   #770
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Re: Rudder Failures

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How many in 15 000 boats (on the last 10 years)? I know of much more expensive quality boats that had big problems and the number of boats produced by those brands are more than 200 or 300 times less. Not saying that has any relevance of how those quality boats were built. I am saying that the number of Beneteaus with problems are insignificant regarding the total number, to consider them badly built or unsafe. Regarding the most talked case, that Oceanis 50 that boat had been grounded and badly repaired. What that proves?
What prove that a rudder post is damaged by a grounding, prove that a composite stock put enough presure in the structure to disloge the plexus, and finally prove how a 50 footer can sink by a faulty rudder post construction, my 10 cents..,
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Old 12-11-2014, 15:00   #771
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Re: Rudder Failures

This morning the boatyard lift a destroyed Jeaneau from the beach , holed , dismasted , and with the keel and rudder destroyed to, i have the chance to step up and take a look inside, the rudder post in one piece and glassed to the hull, rudder Split open with the shaft bend 180 degres.
Just saying.
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Old 12-11-2014, 15:03   #772
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
..
I don't think there are statistics showing how many failures are on what boats so our only way of sort of showing this is by those who spend many hours around ports where passage making boats show up yearly or do repair on many of these boats. As I said in my earlier post this year alone we had three boats that came in with rudder failure and all were the brand most mentioned here. ...Those boats you mentioned maybe were not cared for well, I met the sailors of the three I mentioned and at least two of them were experienced sailors who I'm sure kept their boat in good order as a matter of fact I know they did and both said they did not hit anything that their rudders failed in an ordinary extended gale both had sailed their boats across the Atlantic before. ....
Hi Steve,

Some questions, we are talking about Beneteaus? You should call the boats by their name
Were they new sailboats, I mean less than 5 years old?

I ask because in what regards rudder maintenance most sailors, even experienced ones, have some funny ideas about it, specially the ones that live with a tight budget (that has also to do with the age of the boats).

The truth is that modern spade rudders need a regular maintenance and one that would certainly include having a complete inspection (with the rudder out) before an Atlantic crossing, unless it is a new boat. have they done that?

Regarding data is good to remember that on the last 10 years of ARC more than 2000 (2500?) boats crossed the Atlantic on that Rally, including many Benetaus but the only boats that lost the rudder were a big on off racer cruiser, a Motiva 39, that is a highly regarded steel bluewater boat and an over 50ft Bruce Roberts designed boat, also regarded as a reliable bluewater boat.

There are out there more than 2000 Beneteaus to each Motiva or Bruce Roberts. It is 2000 times more probable that you find a Beneteau with a rudder problem than a Motiva or a Bruce Roberts, and in fact, more probable than any other boat, simply because there are much more of them.

Regards
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Old 12-11-2014, 15:07   #773
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Rudder Failures

Smack,
Any boat it "good enough" until you exceed the designs limitations this is true for any engineered product.
A product that has more margin between it's average use and it's limitations will fare better when it's operational envelope is exceeded, simply because it's ultimate load limit is higher.
So your correct any production boat is a blue water boat, as long as the weather is good.
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Old 12-11-2014, 15:27   #774
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Smack,
Any boat it "good enough" until you exceed the designs limitations this is true for any engineered product.
A product that has more margin between it's average use and it's limitations will fare better when it's operational envelope is exceeded, simply because it's ultimate load limit is higher.
So your correct any production boat is a blue water boat, as long as the weather is good.
Okay - so what's the "operational limit" of, or "ultimate load" for, your Island Packet?

And what is the ratio of that limit/load to that of a production boat?
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Old 12-11-2014, 15:36   #775
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Hi Steve,

Some questions, we are talking about Beneteaus? You should call the boats by their name
Were they new sailboats, I mean less than 5 years old?

I ask because in what regards rudder maintenance most sailors, even experienced ones, have some funny ideas about it, specially the ones that live with a tight budget (that has also to do with the age of the boats).

The truth is that modern spade rudders need a regular maintenance and one that would certainly include having a complete inspection (with the rudder out) before an Atlantic crossing, unless it is a new boat. have they done that?

Regarding data is good to remember that on the last 10 years of ARC more than 2000 (2500?) boats crossed the Atlantic on that Rally, including many Benetaus but the only boats that lost the rudder were a big on off racer cruiser, a Motiva 39, that is a highly regarded steel bluewater boat and an over 50ft Bruce Roberts designed boat, also regarded as a reliable bluewater boat.

There are out there more than 2000 Beneteaus to each Motiva or Bruce Roberts. It is 2000 times more probable that you find a Beneteau with a rudder problem than a Motiva or a Bruce Roberts, and in fact, more probable than any other boat, simply because there are much more of them.

Regards
No they were older than 5 years old. That being said has the ideas of the company Benateau changed since it's beging, that of building a boat at an affordable cost for the many. I agree with you that much of the new material going into boats now are better but it is how they are built with those materials that matter. I just don't believe Benateau makes these boats with the reason of crossing oceans but more for the enjoyment of the average sailor. Where as an example here our last two boats were made to cross oceans, the Mason 44 and the Boreal. Personally I would want a boat made for the job of what I want and love to do and not take the risk of a boat made to do other things. I have seen adds where it is said that Benateau's can cross oceans but I have never read an article where the Benateau company has come out and said that our boats are made for crossing oceans. Where as both the companies of our last two boats and other companies have come out and said yes we want you to cross oceans in our boats that is the reason we made them and how we made them.

We are on our way back to Panama soon and wish you could come visit us this winter.

Cheers
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Old 12-11-2014, 15:42   #776
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Show me a cheap boat with flanged bulkheads bonded directly to the hull, instead of panel stock dropped into a liner slot and bonded.
I don't understand the part of cheap boats with bulkheads bonded directly to the hull. Most boats, cheap or not don't use bonding agents for bulkheads and laminate them to the hull (Bavaria, Hanse and son on) but you surely know that...or then I don't understand what kinds of modern boats you know. Certainly you know Bavaria and Hanse?
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Old 12-11-2014, 15:49   #777
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I have seen adds where it is said that Benateau's can cross oceans but I have never read an article where the Benateau company has come out and said that our boats are made for crossing oceans. Where as both the companies of our last two boats and other companies have come out and said yes we want you to cross oceans in our boats that is the reason we made them and how we made them.
Here's a link to a Beneteau 373 owner's manual with the following:

http://sailingpearl.com/wordpress/wp...hull-22-up.pdf

Quote:
Type .................................................. ..... BENETEAU 373
Name of Builder .................................... BENETEAU USA INC.
Design Category..................................... A
No. of acknowledged body..................... CE 0607

CE CERTIFICATION
Your Beneteau has been manufactured in the United States and has been certified by ICNN to be in compliance with the relevant parts of the Recreational Craft Directive 94/25/EC from the European Parliament. The CE mark means your boat meets or exceeds all current International Organization for Standardization (ISO) standards and directives in effect at the time of manufacture. The builders plate located in the cockpit of your boat, gives information pertinent to this certification, such as; model, design category with corresponding max. number of persons recommended, and max. load weight. Following are the design categories established by the Recreational Craft Directive. This is a guideline only, the safety of those on board your boat are only measurable by the experience and skill of the captain and crew, together with proper preparation and appropriate safety equipment for the given conditions, in addition to a well maintained boat. This certification only applies to factory installed equipment and does not cover equipment installed by the dealer or owner. In the case of European travel such equipment installed after manufacture may need to be certified separately.

DESIGN CATEGORIES
Category A: OCEAN – Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above, and vessels largely self sufficient.....
This is just one example of one model of one brand.

Does this change your opinion?

This is what I mean about this myth versus fact. If the naysayers could at least provide some actual fact to back up their negative opinions, it would be very, very helpful.

I actually think you yard guys could do the sailing world a great service by detailing the kinds of issues you are seeing in the boats you're working on. It would be especially helpful if you could do it without making a judgement about it - just showing what you deal with on a weekly basis. If you could do that, the numbers would speak for themselves. I would be VERY interested in a thread like that.

As a matter of fact...
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Old 12-11-2014, 16:17   #778
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Re: Rudder Failures

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No they were older than 5 years old. That being said has the ideas of the company Benateau changed since it's beging, that of building a boat at an affordable cost for the many. I agree with you that much of the new material going into boats now are better but it is how they are built with those materials that matter. I just don't believe Benateau makes these boats with the reason of crossing oceans but more for the enjoyment of the average sailor. Where as an example here our last two boats were made to cross oceans, the Mason 44 and the Boreal. Personally I would want a boat made for the job of what I want and love to do and not take the risk of a boat made to do other things. I have seen adds where it is said that Benateau's can cross oceans but I have never read an article where the Benateau company has come out and said that our boats are made for crossing oceans. Where as both the companies of our last two boats and other companies have come out and said yes we want you to cross oceans in our boats that is the reason we made them and how we made them.

We are on our way back to Panama soon and wish you could come visit us this winter.

Cheers
Yes, I agree with you with some almost slight differences or even maybe not.

The Boreal is a voyage boat. A voyage boat is designed to sail for a long time, including remote places, with few maintenance needs and can do it for a long time.

Mass production main market boats are designed with a more open design criteria: They are designed for an intended coastal use in first place (because that's where most are going to use them most of the time). That design criteria does not differ in what regards seaworthiness but on a design more pointed to enjoy live: bigger cockpits, easy access to the water, big swimming platform and so on. That does not mean that they are not designed to cross oceans, not like a voyage boat that is designed to do that most of the time, but to do it from time to time, being that time much shorter than the one that he is used as a coastal cruiser.

The main difference regards the needed maintenance, that is bigger on a mass cruising boat, and also in some equipment that comes standard on your boat and is optional on mass production boats or that you have just to add. Also the interior of a voyage boat is more studied for an use at sea and some more details that make it a better and more comfortable to cross oceans, but nothing fundamental in what regards the ability to do that.

As you know, even not designed for that, there are many mass production boats used as voyage boats, some with not the maintenance they need, but many of them circumnavigate without any problem and that tell us how well designed they are, for doing something they are not designed for, without any major problem.

Steve, I would love to accept your offer, but unfortunately I need a lot more maintenance than my boat and I have to "mount" some new hinges on my body and that will take time as well as time for recover to be in full shape for the sail season.

Many thanks for your offer, maybe another winter.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 12-11-2014, 16:20   #779
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Re: Rudder Failures

Okay - you Yard Guys now have your own table in the CF Bar where you can put some proof into the pudding - and help boat buyers and owners alike with the reality of what's out there:

THE YARD GUYS

Let's see what you got.
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Old 12-11-2014, 16:26   #780
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Re: Rudder Failures

People, have a vigorous debate, but hold the personal attacks, please. You cannot call each other "fools", "not mentally capable", etc. It's not allowed by CF rules, first of all, and second of all, resorting to that kind of line weakens your argument.
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