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Old 12-11-2014, 12:35   #751
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Not even close on this - even if one was to erroneously group all 12 Chinese automobile companies together as a single manufacturer. While China buys the largest number of automobiles in the world, only 44% of them are made by Chinese companies. The rest are foreign. GM is probably the most popular brand there.

Toyota and Nissan together build and sell more than twice as many cars worldwide as all 12 Chinese manufacturers combined.

Not even India makes the list, and they both sell a lot of cars and export them more than China.

The top 10 largest automakers in the world | Driving

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I think that he was very close according to this link.

List of countries by motor vehicle production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Coops.
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Old 12-11-2014, 12:42   #752
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Re: Rudder Failures

There have been catastrophic failures of these No 1 selling boat brands. There are long threads on CF about that which is most likely what prompted this thread. So I think it is not the best argument to start talking about what percentage of sailors have to die before we can agree whether or not certain construction methods are adequate.
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Old 12-11-2014, 12:46   #753
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Re: Rudder Failures

Anyone know if the green snot line on this rudder table is Plexus or not?

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Old 12-11-2014, 12:49   #754
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
I think that he was very close according to this link.

List of countries by motor vehicle production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Coops.
Those figures include buses, commercial trucks and coaches. The argument was automobiles. But it is silly anyhow because poor quality Chinese cars were presented as de facto, and it was assumed that they exported these.

And that this line of reasoning had anything at all to do with boats.

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Old 12-11-2014, 12:53   #755
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
OK so "my" logic is flawed, who is the largest builder and are they the best in the world?
Toyota. And yes, they are widely considered as having the quality (I don't know what criteria defines "best").

According to JDPowers: "Porsche, Jaguar, Lexus and Hyundai and Toyota were the best-performing brands in this year's survey. The worst performers were Fiat, Jeep, Mitsubishi, Scion and Mazda."

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Old 12-11-2014, 12:53   #756
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
... GM is probably the most popular brand there.
...

Mark
I just returned from a trip to China and we saw LOTS of GMs and Fords. The cars all looked new too. I was told that Ford was outselling GM but I don't know if that was for a particular class of car or company vs company. Irregardless, we saw quite a few US branded cars which was a surprise.

I would say we saw more US branded cars than Chinese or other national brands.

While there are not that many cars compared to people there sure where quite a few car repair shops. Parking is a huge problem and I don't see what they will do to fix that issue as more people buy cars. There were danged few gas stations and I looked at the signs to see the price of gas but the price was not advertised on the signs.

Air pollution was pretty bad even though we were in the south, along the coast and in a somewhat rural area. We only saw a three facilities with smoke stacks and two of those were power plants. Only the "factory" looking stack was billowing smoke. Given the relatively small number of cars, my guess is that the pollution is floating in from elsewhere OR is from the thousands of small ships we saw on the rivers. I noticed that many buses were running LPG. I don't have a clue if the cars had emission control devices.

It looks like China is about where the US was air pollution wise back in the late 60's or early 70's. Hopefully they can clean up the air quickly because they have would have some very pretty landscape viewing, and healthier people, if the smog was gone.

Later,
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Old 12-11-2014, 12:59   #757
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Not even close on this - even if one was to erroneously group all 12 Chinese automobile companies together as a single manufacturer. While China buys the largest number of automobiles in the world, only 44% of them are made by Chinese companies. The rest are foreign. GM is probably the most popular brand there.

Toyota and Nissan together build and sell more than twice as many cars worldwide as all 12 Chinese manufacturers combined.

Not even India makes the list, and they both sell a lot of cars and export them more than China.

The top 10 largest automakers in the world | Driving

Mark
That is right regarding the number of cars sold and that is relevant, but if you look at the companies that made more money selling cars it is a very different story

Toyota, like Beneteau on boats, comes as nš1, on both lists, but the 2nd on car sales is GM, that is only 6th in what regards profits, while Renault that is 4th is not on the profits top ten, neither Fiat- Chrysler, that is 7th among the ones that sold more. The first Chinese brand (SAIC) does not come on the list of the best sales, but is 10th in what regards profit. Anyway the Koreans of Hyunday do better on both fields (5th and 8th).
No. 8: Hyundai Motor - In Photos: Global 2000: The Biggest Auto Companies Of 2014 - Forbes
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Old 12-11-2014, 13:04   #758
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Robert,
Good post and similar posts are in all of these endless threads about high numbers production boats, but still some want to believe that their HunCataBelina boat is just as strong and sea worthy as any other....
Sigh.

This is where you guys still just don't seem to get it. It's really pretty amazing, I must say.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that production boats are "just as strong and sea worthy as any other". In other words, if you're talking about comparing a Bene to a Boreal? Of course it's not "as strong and sea worthy". But neither is an Oyster.

Again, for the 100th time...that's......not.......the......point. Let me say it again so you guys can finally understand...that's......not.......the......point.

The point is that, for ages, the BWC has been saying that "production boats don't belong off-shore", that "they're not blue water boats", that they are not "strong enough", that they are not "seaworthy enough".

That is completely and utterly wrong.

So, without resorting to drawing pictures for you - the debate is not about comparing the strength of a production boat to whatever "bluewater boat" you happen to love. It's simply about dispelling the stupid myth that these boats can't handle typical bluewater sailing.
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Old 12-11-2014, 13:14   #759
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The main point here is that you and Minaret have been defending than boats that use extensively bonding process, mainly Beneteau and Jeanneau are inadequately built due to the use of that process.

I don't have to know nothing about boat building to know both of you are wrong. Beneteau uses bonding for the last 20 years and Jeanneau for many years. Beneteau is leader of the market and Jeanneau is one of the most popular brands with the sales son the rise.

A product is leader on a given sector because it offer the better relation price/quality and have a reputation of quality. Sailors would not have made Beneteau the nš1 on the sailboat sales if the boats were "Bendy toys" and did not perform or age adequately as you and Minaret suggest. There are more than 20000 Beneteaus and Jeanneaus built on the last 15 years. How many do you know that have failed structurally in a catastrophic way? as you suggest would be easy to happen.

It is funny how you can have a so distorted view of the reality: "Beneteaus are sometimes called Bendytoys, now i dont use this Word in the realworld and i think is a bit rude , but hell is well know around the sailing comunity, ask yourself why?"
The fact is that the sailing community, at least the ones of those that have the money to have a new boat, choose Beneteau as the most interesting offer on the market. There are cheaper boats, but they made Beneteau nš1. I guess that is the real question you should ask yourself: Why? Maybe you think they have been mistaken by shiny brochures. Sure that can happen, for a year or two, but on the last 15 years?
Bingo.
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Old 12-11-2014, 13:16   #760
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Coops View Post
I think that he was very close according to this link.

List of countries by motor vehicle production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Coops.
That includes not only cars as:
" passenger cars, light commercial vehicles, minibuses, trucks, buses and coaches

Anyway regarding the point Robert was making that is irrelevant:they make a lot of cars because they have by very far the biggest population and as was pointed out even so in their own country only 44% that are bought are made there.

Contrary to Beneteau (regarding boats) they don't sell the huge majority of cars they make to the exterior, in fact that percentage is small. But who knows, maybe with time they improve quality and like Beneteau, they will make a factory on US to sell cars to Americans. Maybe one day, like with Beneteau with boats, most of the new sales in cars will be of Chinese ones

And maybe not only in America since I remember the time when Japanese motorcycles were looked as ****
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Old 12-11-2014, 13:27   #761
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
There have been catastrophic failures of these No 1 selling boat brands. There are long threads on CF about that which is most likely what prompted this thread. So I think it is not the best argument to start talking about what percentage of sailors have to die before we can agree whether or not certain construction methods are adequate.
There have been "catastrophic failures" of virtually every boat brand out there. Unless you have real comparative numbers, this means absolutely nothing.

I started this thread to try to get some of those numbers - for real. Thus far we have a single Bene 50 whose rudder assembly failed catastrophically causing it to sink. Of course, all the previous damage and questionable repair to this boat prior to that failure makes any takeway from this incident meaningless.

Look at last year's Salty Dawg Rally fiasco with 100+ boats participating. Here's the monohull failure count:

Alden 54 loses rudder.
Hans Christian 38 dismasted.
Catalina 42 loses rudder.
Catalina 38 "disabled".

Why, that ratio could point one to the conclusion that the "bluewater brands" are equally as "weak" and "unseaworthy" as a production boat.

Oh yeah, and there is the Motiva 39 rudder loss in the 2013 ARC (a freakin' STEEL boat). What other specific examples are there?
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Old 12-11-2014, 13:45   #762
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I don't understand your point. I always said that the bonding should be properly done. Your point was that bonding was only used on cheap boats, on structural parts as a way of saving money. This is no way a cheap boat, quite the contrary and on the Shipman line they use bonding agents for structural purposes. Point made.

"the hull and the upper flanges of the bulkheads are chemically bonded to the deck using Spabond 345, an epoxy-based adhesive. Once this operation is cured, the final stiffness of the boat is achieved.
...the structure is made in female molds, laminated using Sprint and, after oven-cure, bonded to the hull with Spabond 345 material"."

Show me a cheap boat with flanged bulkheads bonded directly to the hull, instead of panel stock dropped into a liner slot and bonded.
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Old 12-11-2014, 14:00   #763
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
To get back on track, here are a few drawings and diagrams of basic stringer construction.





Do you see ANY similarity between the reality and what is depicted in that diagram?
Quote:
"Use 1/4” Dowels, Pieces of foam, Popsicle sticks or whatever to suspend the stringers off the hull. Use PL Adhesive or Peanut Butter to Bed the stringers to the Hull and avoid Hard joints…”
I had no idea Peanut Butter was superior to Plexus. Okay - you've convinced me. I don't know why the industry at large doesn't adopt this obviously scientific method to make superior bluewater boats. It's brilliant!
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Old 12-11-2014, 14:08   #764
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I had no idea Peanut Butter was superior to Plexus. Okay - you've convinced me. I don't know why the industry at large doesn't adopt this obviously scientific method to make superior bluewater boats. It's brilliant!

Way to totally ignore all the misinformation you've been posting and focus on an industry standard term for PB adhesive, which is in any case irrelevant to the argument. Why not discuss the portion of this relevant to your argument, instead of nit picking terms? Afraid it will shoot yet more holes in your theory?


http://precisionboard.com/pdf/PB-Fast-Set-DataSheet.pdf
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Old 12-11-2014, 14:17   #765
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Way to totally ignore all the misinformation you've been posting and focus on an industry standard term for PB adhesive, which is in any case irrelevant to the argument. Why not discuss the portion of this relevant to your argument, instead of nit picking terms? Afraid it will shoot yet more holes in your theory?
What theory? That Plexus is apparently being used a hell of a lot in the industry and we're not seeing the failure rates you guys are implying we should see? I'm still waiting to see those numbers and reports detailing the facts behind you guys' claim that tabbing is always better all the time.

You provided a video of a couple of dudes in a shop doing some tabbing - and a report that uses "popsicle sticks or whatever". How does that tell me, an interested boat buyer that is not a construction expert, that the current state-of-the art in production boats is "weak" and "dangerous"?

Even Charlie's article says this:

Quote:
The traditional procedure, however, is to bond, or tab, internal components in place with strips of fiberglass tape after the hull has been molded. These secondary adhesive bonds are weaker than primary chemical bonds.
Isn't that the claim of Plexus?
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