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Old 10-11-2014, 17:40   #631
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
No, but Jeanneau and other brands are using injection methods and most mass production boats use vinylester resins on the last coats. Some mass production boats offer a full epoxy hulls as an option and most use cored hulls

It seems that even if I had tried I was not clear regarding what I like, or maybe for you "exotic" is just what you call cutting edge in what regards design and technology? The best it is done today and that it will still look modern tomorrow? That's what you call exotic?
Vinylester barrier has been a common option for decades-and it doesn't work as well as a proper barrier coat. I suppose by "injection" you mean infusion. I was doing factory infusion in '94, and was very far from the first. It too has its drawbacks, and is not as simple as often made seem, as well as also being restricted to more expensive models of production boat, generally speaking. It seems to me your argument begins to fall apart if you can only find any of the features you mention in more expensive models. Where exactly are all the new materials and design features that structurally benefit the bottom end of the line, ie the "production boats" you and Smack have been espousing? What exactly are you saying is suddenly different about these boats that allows them to be lighter but still "just as strong"? Because the only big change I see in this end of the production line in the last twenty years or so is hull liners, and I'll be happy to discuss that....
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:42   #632
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I'm not aware of any mass production boats which use fully cored hulls. It's expensive to do it well.
I guess it depends on what you call "fully cored".... but didn't (don't) C&C, J boats, Freedom, Sabre since maybe 2000 core below the waterline? (just the ones I know about)
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:43   #633
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Now Smack you have to take some responsibility here, I'm hearing some "poor me" coming from you. You hired the guy and you should have carefully inspected his work before a hand shake and a cheque.
I can't speak for smack, but we had work done at the same yard. Overall, I think they do pretty good work. You tell the Yard manager what you want and they get it done. I'm pretty sure in this case, the electrical work was done by a sub-contractor that the yard hires. Smack (the customer) never meets the guy wiring the boat, but must rely on the yard's ability to have quality work done by a qualified guy. Hopefully they use someone else these days for electrical work. So, if smack is no expert about wiring a boat....is he qualified to inspect and critique the work done?

I had a new Foss Foam rudder built, and installed by this same yard. I paid for a bottom job along with many other items. Once the rudder was installed, it was painted too. But, probably no barrier coat, nor was it prepped correctly. We left Galveston in November, but by the time we made New Orleans, paint was stripping off the rudder. Divers have been cursing the rudder for two years now, since there is no anti-foul on it. Hopefully it hasn't suffered too much damage after two years, but I'll know when I haul out again.

I guess my daddy taught me right about two things - "anything worth doing, is worth doing well". And - "If you want something done right, do it yourself".

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Old 10-11-2014, 17:50   #634
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Re: Rudder Failures

Why build just the rudder frame out of metal,why not the whole rudder,and the rest of the boat while you're at it?To me,metal is bluewater,for example an Amazon 44
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Old 10-11-2014, 17:57   #635
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Vinylester barrier has been a common option for decades-and it doesn't work as well as a proper barrier coat. I suppose by "injection" you mean infusion. I was doing factory infusion in '94, and was very far from the first. It too has its drawbacks, and is not as simple as often made seem, as well as also being restricted to more expensive models of production boat, generally speaking. It seems to me your argument begins to fall apart if you can only find any of the features you mention in more expensive models. Where exactly are all the new materials and design features that structurally benefit the bottom end of the line, ie the "production boats" you and Smack have been espousing? What exactly are you saying is suddenly different about these boats that allows them to be lighter but still "just as strong"? Because the only big change I see in this end of the production line in the last twenty years or so is hull liners, and I'll be happy to discuss that....
Lets talk about the pro's and con's of hull liners. Some of the pro's are that they can build the hull much thinner, therefore its cheaper with less labor. The interior liner also saves labor and is used to support the thinner outer hull. It is much faster and allows for much higher production rates and works nice on an assembly line. You can do the work with less skilled labor again saving costs. You get a very clean looking interior that is easy to maintain. The boat is lighter and therefore quicker in lighter winds. The boat is cheaper to buy. I'm sure the list is much longer but that is a start. OK over to you for some of the con's....
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Old 10-11-2014, 18:03   #636
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Lets talk about the pro's and con's of hull liners.
Not much to do with rudders....sorry, couldn't resist.

Ralph
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Old 10-11-2014, 18:13   #637
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I'm not aware of any mass production boats which use fully cored hulls. It's expensive to do it well.
Jeanneau and Beneteau use not cored boats but a system of monolitic hull and Monolithic structural counter moulding laminated and bonded to the hull for strength instead of a cored hull.
Bavaria,Hanse and Delphia like for instance Oyster, use cored hulls above waterline and monolithic below.
Dehler, Salona uses fully cored hulls with a full epoxy option. Elan also uses cored hulls. Dufour also uses cored hulls.

All of those are mass production builders
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Old 10-11-2014, 18:16   #638
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Lets talk about the pro's and con's of hull liners. Some of the pro's are that they can build the hull much thinner, therefore its cheaper with less labor. The interior liner also saves labor and is used to support the thinner outer hull. It is much faster and allows for much higher production rates and works nice on an assembly line. You can do the work with less skilled labor again saving costs. You get a very clean looking interior that is easy to maintain. The boat is lighter and therefore quicker in lighter winds. The boat is cheaper to buy. I'm sure the list is much longer but that is a start. OK over to you for some of the con's....


First, some comments on your pro's. The idea that the boat can be built lighter because of a liner is misleading. Let's say for the sake of argument you try to reproduce the same effect without a liner, ie build the overall hull thickness lighter but add more structural members like stringers, floors, and bulkheads, to represent the contact points of the liner. This does indeed potentially give us a lighter hull with the same overall panel stiffness in the hull (and it has been done many times in many ways). However, it does NOT give us the same resistance to impact, unless said impact occurs solely on a structural member. Nor does it give us the same resistance to abrasion, or the same failure modes, that other methods can offer. Sure, you can build a faster boat this way. But don't fool yourself into thinking that there are no trade offs...



Cons? Let's start with much of the interior of the hull being inaccessible and work from there...
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Old 10-11-2014, 18:22   #639
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
My wife and I have become strong advocates of the modern cruising boat. After 40 years of sailing the traditional cruising boats like designs by Philip Rhodes and Al Mason we decided to try something new. After much research we decided to take the chance on the Boreal 44 for many reasons. 1) it is aluminum, light, fast and strong.
2) it has a single protected rudder that is strong and sea worthy.
3) has so much storage space that the deck is clean at all times including inflatable. I can't give you a name of any old design at 44 feet that can give you that.
4) it has a centerboard for our future adventures to the rivers of Borneo and PNG.
5) for a new boat the price for us was in our range and reasonable. Not all that much more than a new Benny toy at about 50ft.

What we feared the most about the new designs were all that we read on how sea kindly they are not and how safe they are not. But we went forward and never regreted it. What we have in a modern designed boat is by far the most sea kindly and seaworthy boat we have owned in 40 years of serious sailing. I always told Paulo that if we did not like the way she sailed we would be truthful on interesting sailboat thread. I'm glad I don't have to tell that story. Be it to windward in 30 knots and total crap or 40 knots for six friggin days like when we left the Canary Islands we were comfortable and well. My wife never got sea sick once as she always has been on all previous traditional boats for 3 or 4 days. I swear it is the stern dagger boards that keep the stern from sliding like traditional cutter rigged boats always did in rough seas like on our Mason 44. One example of seaworthiness was 2 days out of Panama off the Columbia coast we were hit broadside by a large breaking wave on the beam that covered most of the deck and cockpit right up to the boom. The boat was pushed side ways instead of being a knockdown as would most likely would have happened on the Mason 44. The most scary part of it was the noise and the vibration of the breaking wave hitting the beam. We came out of it right back on course instead of nose into the wind and stalled out.

I can't explain the reasons why some modern boats are better than traditional boats I'm not a NA I just use my instincts from lots of years sailing. I know there are a lot of junk modern day boats out there from Europe and the USA just as there are lots of old designed junk still out there. Over the last 8 months of sailing our Boreal from France to Panama we came across 3 boats in different ports that lost their rudder while on passage and guess what all were cheaply made production boats not made for ocean crossings. I have a hard time agreeing with the notion that all production boats are made to cross oceans and that is with respect to the OP but all boats are not made equal and the less equal are going to fail more than the proper made boat for the job be it old design or new.

Cheers
This is a great report. Thanks Steve.

BTW - I'm certainly not saying that a Beneteau or Hunter (etc.) is built for taking large breaking waves over the beam. They are certainly not Boreals.

I'm just saying that, with some care, they can (and do) get people across oceans and even around the world pretty regularly.
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Old 10-11-2014, 18:23   #640
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by highseas View Post
Why build just the rudder frame out of metal,why not the whole rudder,and the rest of the boat while you're at it?To me,metal is bluewater,for example an Amazon 44
Weight?

Integrity at welds?

Shaping?

Price?

Difficulty in joining the sacrificial part with the permanent structure?

What possible limitations do you see?

b.
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Old 10-11-2014, 18:36   #641
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Re: Rudder Failures

I do not think a boat with extensive liners would be lighter. I think liners are pretty heavy option compared to the alternatives. Liners I have seen were all solid grp. That's heavy.

And you cannot make lighter outer shell because such a shell will be less than optimally resistant to point damage (e.g. puncture from an UFO).

I like liners, but I would not like to sail an offshore boat with the outer shell less strong than the technology / materials and mode of use of the boat allow.

b.
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Old 10-11-2014, 18:44   #642
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Re: Rudder Failures

Beneteau Oceanis 45 is 23,250lbs Amazon 44 Aluminum is 27000lbs. Not a big difference.
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Old 10-11-2014, 18:54   #643
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Vinylester barrier has been a common option for decades-and it doesn't work as well as a proper barrier coat. I suppose by "injection" you mean infusion. I was doing factory infusion in '94, and was very far from the first. It too has its drawbacks, and is not as simple as often made seem, as well as also being restricted to more expensive models of production boat, generally speaking. It seems to me your argument begins to fall apart if you can only find any of the features you mention in more expensive models. Where exactly are all the new materials and design features that structurally benefit the bottom end of the line, ie the "production boats" you and Smack have been espousing? What exactly are you saying is suddenly different about these boats that allows them to be lighter but still "just as strong"? Because the only big change I see in this end of the production line in the last twenty years or so is hull liners, and I'll be happy to discuss that....
Normally on the cheapest boats is used Vinylester on the last layers plus an epoxy barrier coat before the antifouling. The more expensive are all vinylester and even among some of the not much expensive (mass production) you have sometimes a full epoxy option.

As you said vacuum infusion was a system that was only used on very expensive boats. Today mass production brands like Dehler, Dufour, Salona and Elan use vacuum infusion on the hulls and decks. These boats are not substantially more expensive than Jeanneau or Beneteau. In fact a friend of mine comparing an Oceanis 38 and a Dehler 38 with the same specifications (lot's of things have to be added to the Oceanis to have the same specifications of a Dehler) found out that the Oceanis was slightly more expensive. He was interested on both boats so he really took care to see what they were offering.

I have heard the name infusion and injection generically being used regarding the same process but in fact they are two different process. Most use infusion for hull and injection for decks. I used the therm generically referring both process.

The Dehler Manufacturing Process - Quality Comes First
http://sailman.fi/documents/S38press...e19.5.2011.pdf
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Old 10-11-2014, 19:02   #644
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Oh Jeeez I thought this thread was going to die after we all agreed that when you can get a row boat across an ocean and the only qualifier for a blue water boat was crossing an ocean and some how keeping the water on the outside of the hull but now we are going back to where we started.
Smacky and Polux are fans of the less costly liner boats and others here prefer the stick built boats. So its kinda like a religious debate, we just hear repeats with a different angle. Smacky thinks today's affordable production boats are good enough and get the job done in most cases and he is right. Neil and Minaret prefer the glassed in bulkheads and stringers type of construction because it is a better way to build boats in the long run, they are right. The difference is money, it costs more to buy higher quality but if your like Smacky and you are happy with good enough then buy good enough. If you want to spend more money and buy a higher quality build then stick with Neil and Minaret. There whats left?


A whole slew of '70s and '80s boats that still exist, were not built with liners, and tabs were done the way they should be. And even the coastal cruisers had actual handholds and rounded corners.
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Old 10-11-2014, 19:03   #645
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Normally on the cheapest boats is used Vinylester on the last layers plus an epoxy barrier coat before the antifouling. The more expensive are all vinylester and even among some of the not much expensive (mass production) you have sometimes a full epoxy option.

As you said vacuum infusion was a system that was only used on very expensive boats. Today mass production brands like Dehler, Dufour, Salona and Elan use vacuum infusion on the hulls and decks. These boats are not substantially more expensive than Jeanneau or Beneteau. In fact a friend of mine comparing an Oceanis 38 and a Dehler 38 with the same specifications (lot's of things have to be added to the Oceanis to have the same specifications of a Dehler) found out that the Oceanis was slightly more expensive. He was interested on both boats so he really took care to see what they were offering.

I have heard the name infusion and injection generically being used regarding the same process but in fact they are two different process. Most use infusion for hull and injection for decks. I used the therm generically referring both process.

The Dehler Manufacturing Process - Quality Comes First
http://sailman.fi/documents/S38press...e19.5.2011.pdf



After decades of boat building, and having attended a number of IBEX events, I have never heard anyone refer to any method of fiberglass construction as injection. This is because injection is a common method/terminology in plastics construction, which might lead to confusion.



IBEX Show: Where Better Boats Begin



http://network.ibexshow.com//IBEX14/...hEvent=&ID=255
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