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Old 10-11-2014, 13:03   #571
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

(...)

What is a "pure cruising boat" anyway?

There isn't one. That's the issue.
How about a Kendal/Westsail 32?

Or a Tahitiana?

Wanderer, Spray perhaps?

Deerfoot?

Yes! A Deerfoot. Built by people who knew where speed comes from, but with the target of getting the ultimate cruising weapon.

IMHO there are countless examples of pure cruising boats around.

Interestingly, this thread became so much more interesting (and fun) once we stopped talking about the irrelevance of strong, good rudders in cruising boats!

Love,
b.
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Old 10-11-2014, 13:07   #572
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I stand by my point that the bulk of the boats sit in marinas and are used for everything but sailing. Remember you are the guy that went over the numbers, multi thousands of boats made over the last 10 years or so and every year a few dozen show up for the ARC race, that hardly proves anything.
It may not be definitive - but it certainly proves something. When you keep disregarding verifiable facts that don't line up with your theories, what do you have left? Feelings?
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Old 10-11-2014, 13:08   #573
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Re: Rudder Failures

Spray?, that has the cruising ability of a brick and the hydrodynamics of one too.
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Old 10-11-2014, 13:33   #574
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I see marinas and town ports or walls the same. Some you don't get services at and others you do but you are tied to land and can step off your boat and walk to town for a drink which is part of the attraction... I'm not sure how this works but one minute you are posting marinas showing thousands of boats with hardly any empty spaces and in the next post you say more people anchor out. ..
In the end who cares anyone who has been around sailing for any period of time knows that most of the boats seldom leave the marina for more than a few days at the best of times.
This message has been crafted while I sit in Pasito Blanco marina, LOL.
Of course most boats are on marinas because contrary to some few very lucky guys, almost all owners have to work and have a limited time when they can cruise. The point was not the number of boats at marinas but when the boats are cruising if they go more from marina to marina or from anchorage to anchorage.

And regarding being the same being on a small village port or marina it seem you forget why you have said that med boats are made to go from one marina to the other:

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
... In the Med you do see lots of boats like Polux posts pic's of, deep bulb keels,double rudders and all the other high performance goodies. Most Med sailors ..go from marina to marina with the odd night anchored out. ...There are tons of well equipped chandeliers and workmen in every port so its a completely different environment from having no marinas in most areas and every night on the hook and long multi day passages in between ports.
You need a boat that has been time tested and something that can be easily hauled without the complications of super deep bulb keels.
...
Your arguments why a med sailor on a fast modern boat goes from Marina to Marina does not apply at all at small village quays. There is no no yacht services to speak off, no way to repair anything on a boat, no way to haul the boat. Completely different from the services you will find on a marina.

Besides it is not only on village quays that you are tied to land, in fact it is an old tradition on the med and done without outside help is a lot more dificult then to anchor.

Look at this picture taken on a small med Island village port:



For the reasons you give regarding the use of Marinas it would make any difference to be on that small quay or to be at anchor as I am? (the photo was taken from my boat).

I could not be at that quay because it had less than 2.00 draft but after having taking the photo I swam to land, with a lead line and without moving the anchor toke a line to that orange iron and pulled my boat to 1 m of the shore or so. It was deep enough there. It would make any difference, in what regards services that a marina can offer, the way I staid on that little Island Port? Except being easier to go to shore? The only thing that they had as services was a small restaurant and a mini-market

Are you sure that for your reasoning why fast boats need to go from Marina to Marina applies to small port quays? And that marinas and village ports in what regards services are the same? It does not make any sense to me.
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Old 10-11-2014, 13:34   #575
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
While the gamut you describe certainly exists, I do think that boats can be defined by their purpose. If racing is not part of it, then it's a pure cruising boat. Very high performance pure cruising boats exist, of course, but they are different from Beneteau Firsts and many of the boats depicted in previous posts.
Again, this is where I think you're wrong.

I've crewed off-shore races in a Pacific Seacraft 37 and a Pearson 365. The "purpose" of those boats is decidedly NOT racing. Yet we did very well in our class...and even in the entire fleet at times.

The activity doesn't really define the boat. Period.

As clearly reflected in the market, most people want a combination of luxury/stability/comfort/ performance/price/looks/etc. Very few are looking for a "pure" anything.
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Old 10-11-2014, 13:36   #576
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Well said, Smack! I think that you have hit upon a real stumbling block for these discussions: there is no such thing as either a "blue water" boat or a "pure cruising boat", so arguing about whether one vessel or another fits those descriptions always degenerates into personality wars.

Reality checks show us that all manner of vessels have been successfully used to accomplish "cruising" and "voyaging". They also show us that sometimes any type of boat can come to grief.

Different sailors place different values upon various qualities in a boat. Some value high sailing speeds, some value luxurious fittings and upholstery, some value good resale probabilities, some value traditional appearance... the list of factors is endless. I reckon that it is pointless to worry about categorizing our boats into classes. Better to spend the energy maintaining and perhaps improving our floating homes and chariots than boasting about or denigrating undefined and ephemeral qualities. And checking one's rudder ain't a bad place to start...

Cheers,

Jim
The best post of the thread
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Old 10-11-2014, 13:38   #577
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Interestingly, this thread became so much more interesting (and fun) once we stopped talking about the irrelevance of strong, good rudders in cruising boats!

Love,
b.
Actually, I think you've missed the point of the thread. What we're seeing is that rudder failures really aren't as common as they are typically made out to be in forums.

So, yeah, it's much more fun to talk about the pros and cons of sailboats...and finally agree that the bluewater vs. production boat debate is finally dead.
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Old 10-11-2014, 13:54   #578
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Actually, I think you've missed the point of the thread. What we're seeing is that rudder failures really aren't as common as they are typically made out to be in forums.

So, yeah, it's much more fun to talk about the pros and cons of sailboats...and finally agree that the bluewater vs. production boat debate is finally dead.

Forums aren't a good place to gather this data, nor anywhere else online, as I said much earlier. I've done three keels and three rudders in the last month alone. Two of the rudders were replaced instead of rebuilt, it's cheaper for the client. One was Foss Foams, one a factory rebuild. They both pretty much sucked compared to my rebuild and required extra work before install. Much cheaper though! That's what you can expect from the factory, alas. Poor quality.


I love how the guys in this thread go on and on about advances in boatbuilding techniques and materials creating a better product, without actually naming any new methods or materials. They've been totally fooled by the glossy brochures and web pages. Clearly been baffled by BS! Just talk to anyone who actually builds or repairs boats for a living, and you will find opinions fairly unanimous. And I don't mean management types who are trying to sell something, either! The dustiest guy in the yard is the one to talk to...
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Old 10-11-2014, 13:56   #579
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Actually, I think you've missed the point of the thread. What we're seeing is that rudder failures really aren't as common as they are typically made out to be in forums.

So, yeah, it's much more fun to talk about the pros and cons of sailboats...and finally agree that the bluewater vs. production boat debate is finally dead.
You made that statement many pages ago and yet, here we are again.

Coops.
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Old 10-11-2014, 14:10   #580
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Re: Rudder Failures

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You made that statement many pages ago and yet, here we are again.

Coops.
So are you still trying to argue it?
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Old 10-11-2014, 14:17   #581
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I love how the guys in this thread go on and on about advances in boatbuilding techniques and materials creating a better product, without actually naming any new methods or materials. They've been totally fooled by the glossy brochures and web pages. Clearly been baffled by BS! Just talk to anyone who actually builds or repairs boats for a living, and you will find opinions fairly unanimous. And I don't mean management types who are trying to sell something, either! The dustiest guy in the yard is the one to talk to...
Though you know WORLDS more than I about the practicalities of these materials, I've actually presented the stated facts about Plexus (from multiple sources) that contradicts the "proper glassing is better" mantra we always hear from the "dusty guys". Is that all BS?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy your "dustiest guy in the yard" argument. He may have a hell of a lot of practical experience and know-how - but he's no designer or engineer. So the BS can run both ways.

As I said earlier in this thread, it takes good design, engineering and building to make a viable product.
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Old 10-11-2014, 14:19   #582
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
....
Gunboat is by this definition a pure cruising boat, but with extreme performance. Did anyone notice that a Gunboat in the ARC last year averaged over 300 miles a day? Unbelievable . . . That makes even this hard-core mono guy drool . . . .
That Gunboat 62 (Zenyatta) is activelly raced on many top races.
ZENYATTA : Challenge and Adventure.com
I don't know why they have not raced on the race division (probably because they would lose) but they raced the boat on the cruising division (0 engine hours) and won it on the multihull class. The boat had a racing crew as usual.
They crossed it in 8 days 18:12:50. I am much more impressed by the performance of the Knierim 65 Caro, a fast cruiser racer that I posted on that post about the boats faster than the Beowulf 65. The boat also with a racing crew crossed in 5 days 06:10:10, a truly incredibly performance for a cruiser racer even if for a very special one.

Also more impressed with the awesome performance of a Marten 49, another monohull cruiser racer that made it in 9 days 03:12:00. If we take in consideration that this is a much smaller boat than the Gunboat 62, the 9 hours difference for the Gunboat seems very little in more than 18 days racing.

Also impressed with the performance of the first production performance cruiser, a X50, that made it in 9 days 19:53:46. Of course all these boats had racing crews, but they are what they are in what regards cruising potential and if the Knierim is much more of a racer than a cruiser, with a poor cruising interior, the X50 is as much of a cruiser as the Gunboat 62, also a production boat, even if with a very small production. Of course the Gunboat 62 is bigger and is a cat with all the advantages and disadvantages of a cat and the X50 is a smaller monohull with the adv. and disadvantages monohulls have regarding cats. Both are performance cruisers.
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Old 10-11-2014, 14:33   #583
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Though you know WORLDS more than I about the practicalities of these materials, I've actually presented the stated facts about Plexus (from multiple sources) that contradicts the "proper glassing is better" mantra we always hear from the "dusty guys". Is that all BS?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy your "dustiest guy in the yard" argument. He may have a hell of a lot of practical experience and know-how - but he's no designer or engineer. So the BS can run both ways.

As I said earlier in this thread, it takes good design, engineering and building to make a viable product.


Here's my "dusty guy" opinion. Disclaimer-I have done high end destructive testing on Plexus and other methacrylates for multi million dollar custom builds.


Sure, plexus bonds to wood well. But, it is quite brittle compared to a glass laminate. And, the key issue is in surface area of the application. If they made their plexus fillets with a 4" fillet ball, it might approach the strength of a glass tab, but would certainly crack. With a less than 1" fillet, you are relying on the bond of 1" ply to ply veneers. The ply itself will delaminate quite easily over such a short distance. To do the same to a proper glass tab requires delaminating vastly more ply veneer, which makes it much much stronger. And, in point of fact, as you can see in Neil's pics, production builders don't even remove the varnish from the panel edge before bonding! Therefore you are relying on the weakest link in the chain. The boat is being held together by the bond strength of varnish to wood! Totally unacceptable, but I see it daily.

In short, plexus fillets are an acceptable route in high end builds where you are bonding glass to glass over a size able surface area, as it was designed to do. What they are using it for is way outside its original design brief.
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Old 10-11-2014, 14:41   #584
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

(...) So, yeah, it's much more fun to talk about the pros and cons of sailboats...and finally agree that the bluewater vs. production boat debate is finally dead.
It has long been dead. We are just flogging that dead donkey here. 99% of blueawater boats are production boats.

Meanwhile the ARC+ fleet is already some way down to CV: that Cigale is keeping up with the Outremers; that HR37 is sailing as fast as that IP45 and only the Herreshoff seems like possibly a non mass production boat, and sails like one too. So to say, we can get a boat 10' shorter, if we are irresponsible enough to go for a performance designed boat, we can also get a multi 10' shorter than a mono, if we have no taste and we do not trust liferafts.

I am not sure what color water between Canaries and Verdes is, it was blue last time we sailed it.

;-)

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Old 10-11-2014, 15:10   #585
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Re: Rudder Failures

Swans are production boats, Amels to, Najads, Oysters , beneteaus, long list, bluewater boats? whats is that? what i do is recognize the bad apples from the good ones...
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