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Old 09-11-2014, 23:16   #556
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Re: Rudder Failures

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No but you said that on the med sailors go from marina to marina and implied they don't anchor out. Most don't stay at marinas and stay on anchor. Now if you know that why you said otherwise?
Would he not be correct in saying the majority move from marina to marina or med moor at villages and a smaller percentage anchor out such as Nolex and a few members such as yourself here. A smaller % it seems.

??
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Old 10-11-2014, 03:26   #557
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Would he not be correct in saying the majority move from marina to marina or med moor at villages and a smaller percentage anchor out such as Nolex and a few members such as yourself here. A smaller % it seems.

??
All of the cruising I did in the Med, we always anchored out 3 or 4 or 5 nights then into a village or marina for a night for water, wash clothes, etc. I think that's a pretty normal pattern.
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Old 10-11-2014, 09:37   #558
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Would he not be correct in saying the majority move from marina to marina or med moor at villages and a smaller percentage anchor out such as Nolex and a few members such as yourself here. A smaller % it seems.

??
I would say it depends of the place on the med. Certainly he is true if we talk about Italy, South Coats of France and Med coast of Spain. Probably not if we talk about Balearic Islands, Corsica or Sardignia and almost certainly not if we consider Greece or Turkey. In Greece there are a lot of very small ports where you lay anchor and pull the boat backward to the quay, but that is not a marina. There are certainly a lot of boats on the marinas but they are not cruising and their owners are not there or if there only daysail the boats and that's not cruising. Most boats that are on marinas have a fixed place there, the boats in transit (cruising) are relatively few.

On Greece there are very few Marinas for the total number of boats cruising there and the number of perfectly sheltered coves, like this one, are many hundreds: Some small Island there have more perfect places to anchor than on all the Portuguese coast and there are hundreds of Islands, not to mention the continent that has also many perfect places to anchor:


On the Turkish coast, on the touristic zones there are considerably more marinas then in Greece but then there are also more coves to anchor. On some regions you sail half an hour to change from a perfect big anchorage to another one.

Put all those boats together more the boats that are anchored on very small natural ports (and tied backward to a small quay or some rocks on the coast) and you will have much more sailboats there than on all marinas put together.
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Old 10-11-2014, 09:54   #559
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Re: Rudder Failures

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All of the cruising I did in the Med, we always anchored out 3 or 4 or 5 nights then into a village or marina for a night for water, wash clothes, etc. I think that's a pretty normal pattern.
And those village small quays are not Marinas, they have not certainly the services Robert was talking about. And regarding there we can have less privacy, with the stern to the quay but then we can have the Mojitos delivered directly to the boat



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Old 10-11-2014, 10:12   #560
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Re: Rudder Failures

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And those village small quays are not Marinas, they have not certainly the services Robert was talking about. And regarding there we can have less privacy, with the stern to the quay but then we can have the Mojitos delivered directly to the boat



Not just in the Med, but everywhere else as well, we greatly prefer a real port to any kind of a marina. There's nothing better than being tied up to the town quay in the middle of a historic port town. Even if it means no services, electrical power, etc. Marinas are just big boat parking lots -- much less interesting.
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Old 10-11-2014, 10:58   #561
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Re: Rudder Failures

I see marinas and town ports or walls the same. Some you don't get services at and others you do but you are tied to land and can step off your boat and walk to town for a drink which is part of the attraction. In the summer the marinas are usually packed and often you have no other choice than to anchor out, also it is common for the operators to double or even triple the marina fees in the summer months. I'm not sure how this works but one minute you are posting marinas showing thousands of boats with hardly any empty spaces and in the next post you say more people anchor out. The reality is that in the summer lots of people do anchor out for a few days before they head back to the marina but there are many more boats in marinas than there are on the hook.
In the end who cares anyone who has been around sailing for any period of time knows that most of the boats seldom leave the marina for more than a few days at the best of times.
This message has been crafted while I sit in Pasito Blanco marina, LOL.
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Old 10-11-2014, 11:13   #562
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I see marinas and town ports or walls the same. Some you don't get services at and others you do but you are tied to land and can step off your boat and walk to town for a drink which is part of the attraction. In the summer the marinas are usually packed and often you have no other choice than to anchor out, also it is common for the operators to double or even triple the marina fees in the summer months. I'm not sure how this works but one minute you are posting marinas showing thousands of boats with hardly any empty spaces and in the next post you say more people anchor out. The reality is that in the summer lots of people do anchor out for a few days before they head back to the marina but there are many more boats in marinas than there are on the hook.
In the end who cares anyone who has been around sailing for any period of time knows that most of the boats seldom leave the marina for more than a few days at the best of times.
This message has been crafted while I sit in Pasito Blanco marina, LOL.
This remind a summer trying to dock at Marina Ibiza and asked by the dock master to pay triple the fee for docking , off course under the table, and just for a couple of nights because the marina is full booked, summer mafias!!!
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Old 10-11-2014, 11:21   #563
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Originally Posted by robert sailor
I see marinas and town ports or walls the same. Some you don't get services at and others you do but you are tied to land and can step off your boat and walk to town for a drink which is part of the attraction. In the summer the marinas are usually packed and often you have no other choice than to anchor out, also it is common for the operators to double or even triple the marina fees in the summer months. I'm not sure how this works but one minute you are posting marinas showing thousands of boats with hardly any empty spaces and in the next post you say more people anchor out. The reality is that in the summer lots of people do anchor out for a few days before they head back to the marina but there are many more boats in marinas than there are on the hook. In the end who cares anyone who has been around sailing for any period of time knows that most of the boats seldom leave the marina for more than a few days at the best of times. This message has been crafted while I sit in Pasito Blanco marina, LOL.
Yes, I thought it was common knowledge that most sailboats seldom leave the marina.
Moreover, this knowledge has been known for some time. I recall Don Casey mentioning this idea in his first edition book.

One logical thought is that there will be less forces placed on the rudder while it is docked, but then there are special cases where the opposite is true; my boat has a stern hung rudder and it was glanced by a boat that navigating in the marina - not paying attention - 860 bucks is insurance had to pay. The following year, a motor boat lost navigation and was blown into my rudder - 350 bucks he paid out.

Rudders hung off the stern are exposed and my rudder failure was caused by others. In both cases I was in the slip. Gee.. Talk about external forces.
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Old 10-11-2014, 11:55   #564
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Yes, but there is not one pure cruising boat in the lot, except perhaps the Gunboat, and that's a multi.

But that's also not really what you'd call a pure cruising boat...
This has been discussed somewhat above - but I think there is a real problem in this kind of thinking. What is a "pure cruising boat" anyway?

There isn't one. That's the issue. Boats run the gamut from less-expensive to very-expensive, and, more importantly, poor-performing to high-performing (which means completely different things depending on how you define performance).

The problem with the bluewater vs. production boat debate is that people seem to think there is actually a purist definition of what a cruising boat is supposed to be. And, as clearly shown in this thread, that is clearly wrong.
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Old 10-11-2014, 12:26   #565
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This has been discussed somewhat above - but I think there is a real problem in this kind of thinking. What is a "pure cruising boat" anyway?

There isn't one. That's the issue. Boats run the gamut from less-expensive to very-expensive, and, more importantly, poor-performing to high-performing (which means completely different things depending on how you define performance).

The problem with the bluewater vs. production boat debate is that people seem to think there is actually a purist definition of what a cruising boat is supposed to be. And, as clearly shown in this thread, that is clearly wrong.
Well said, Smack! I think that you have hit upon a real stumbling block for these discussions: there is no such thing as either a "blue water" boat or a "pure cruising boat", so arguing about whether one vessel or another fits those descriptions always degenerates into personality wars.

Reality checks show us that all manner of vessels have been successfully used to accomplish "cruising" and "voyaging". They also show us that sometimes any type of boat can come to grief.

Different sailors place different values upon various qualities in a boat. Some value high sailing speeds, some value luxurious fittings and upholstery, some value good resale probabilities, some value traditional appearance... the list of factors is endless. I reckon that it is pointless to worry about categorizing our boats into classes. Better to spend the energy maintaining and perhaps improving our floating homes and chariots than boasting about or denigrating undefined and ephemeral qualities. And checking one's rudder ain't a bad place to start...

Cheers,

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Old 10-11-2014, 12:40   #566
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Re: Rudder Failures

Hate to say this Smack bit I actually agree with you. Cruising is a very broad term and can mean anything from living on your boat at dockside to sailing the Arctic ocean. Cruising in the Med is certainly way different than cruising in the S or N Pacific and the type of boat chosen is often different as is the equipment. By and large its a complete hodgepodge of anything from race boats with minimalists or a heavy long keeled boat loaded to the gills or something in between so almost impossible to nail down. I often use the term voyager as people who are crossing oceans and often operate in areas without the support system associated with the urban centers but even that covers a huge group of different boats. I also sort of agree that the term bluewater boat leaves something to be desired because we look at boats that have crossed oceans and if they have crossed we assume they are bluewater boats and realize that we have to include Cal 25's and Catalina 27's and if we are to include those boats then anything manufactured these days no matter the quality does in fact qualify as a bluewater boat. So I vote to maybe get rid of the saying and spend more time discussing what quality really means in boat building.
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Old 10-11-2014, 12:48   #567
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Re: Rudder Failures

Then look at the term camp cruising. Basically you sail all day, pull up on the beach, throw the tent up and in the morning off again somewhere else. It is not crossing oceans but it is still cruising. You only need a dayboat or even a Hobie cat to do it. Cruising is a way of life not a definition of a boat.

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Old 10-11-2014, 12:57   #568
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This has been discussed somewhat above - but I think there is a real problem in this kind of thinking. What is a "pure cruising boat" anyway?

There isn't one. That's the issue. Boats run the gamut from less-expensive to very-expensive, and, more importantly, poor-performing to high-performing (which means completely different things depending on how you define performance).

The problem with the bluewater vs. production boat debate is that people seem to think there is actually a purist definition of what a cruising boat is supposed to be. And, as clearly shown in this thread, that is clearly wrong.
While the gamut you describe certainly exists, I do think that boats can be defined by their purpose. If racing is not part of it, then it's a pure cruising boat. Very high performance pure cruising boats exist, of course, but they are different from Beneteau Firsts and many of the boats depicted in previous posts.

Gunboat is by this definition a pure cruising boat, but with extreme performance. Did anyone notice that a Gunboat in the ARC last year averaged over 300 miles a day? Unbelievable . . . That makes even this hard-core mono guy drool . . . .
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Old 10-11-2014, 12:58   #569
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Re: Rudder Failures

So, I wonder what the best use of a Flicka 20 is?

Yes, tongue in cheek.

Going across oceans, you bet. Coastal cruising? Sure, it can do it, but would you want to?
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Old 10-11-2014, 13:02   #570
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Neil,
Couldn't agree more. Out of over 35 years of very active sailing I had only Med moored twice in my life before coming to the Med. We anchor as much as possible but sometimes for a variety of reasons you have to be in a marina. I am super careful and do everything as slow as possible but most of these cowboys back down at the same speed they go forward. Sometimes it is like bumper cars, you look close at boats here and there are dings and scratches all over the place, something we are not used to in NA.

I was in a med marina for three years, never seen those "cowboys". what I have seen are your typical charter crew that don't know anything. I remember in HVAR a US boat basically wrecking half the harbour trying to med moor. ( used way too much throttle to get out of trouble).

Having returned to my marina in France every night during most of the summers I was there, I never scratched or was scratched. fender up, move the other boats, etc etc, Its just a technique like any other.

Personally I liked the social aspect of being stern too, G&Ts with the neighbours, friendly dockside BBqs etc. Why lock yourself away.

dave
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