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Old 09-11-2014, 09:05   #541
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Because you have rusty marinas without mooring balls and marinas where anchoring is mandatory, both, pick the mooring ball and tie to the dock bow to or stern to,...:
Hum, you should have been on the med many years ago and should have been in plenty marinas. I almost never go to Marinas but to town ports (much cheaper) and on those they don't have lines to pull forward, you have to cast your anchor. On much more expensive marinas, in all marinas I have saw, and that don't mean that I have the boat there there is no ball at all, simply because the lines that way risk to be caught by propellers. The system they use is two lines that you grab on the stern, given by a sailor on the quay, that you carry to the bow and pull. Attached to those come the mooring frontal lines.

It has been like that for decades and all that cruise there know the set up on marinas. In what years have you cruised the med?

Besides going bow to the quay has another problem: On most of the med you have tides, small ones of about a meter or less, even so that means that, unlike on a floating pontoon, you cannot tie your boat very close to the quay. In fact for safety reasons that distance demands the use of a "passarela", a kind of board that connects the boat to the quay. Using it on the bow would not only give it a ridiculously uncomfortable inclination as it would made the fixation on the bow impossibly difficult since on the transom most use the boom lift line to secure the passarela.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:15   #542
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Re: Rudder Failures

Hehe you are a tricky one, ok with ball or without ball i know what you mean , in Las Palmas you have a mooring , yes with the line atached to the dock ok Pólux, Almerimar in the past have morring balls no idea now and in Mallorca you have the mooring to, Barcelona marina have a mooring to , at least in the past, is a matter of preferences and choices, if you want to be with your ass naked in the cockpit choose bow to if you want say hello and good morning to the crowd choose stern to. Voila!!!
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:17   #543
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Re: Rudder Failures

My experience is that different boats go bow and stern in. We have done it both ways but mostly stern in. The long keel boats that do not back up well like to go bow in. People have little 2-3 step ladders off their bow that they use to get off. Tides are normally not an issue in most of the Med.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:39   #544
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Hum, you should have been on the med many years ago and should have been in plenty marinas. I almost never go to Marinas but to town ports (much cheaper) and on those they don't have lines to pull forward, you have to cast your anchor. On much more expensive marinas, in all marinas I have saw, and that don't mean that I have the boat there there is no ball at all, simply because the lines that way risk to be caught by propellers. The system they use is two lines that you grab on the stern, given by a sailor on the quay, that you carry to the bow and pull. Attached to those come the mooring frontal lines.

It has been like that for decades and all that cruise there know the set up on marinas. In what years have you cruised the med?

Besides going bow to the quay has another problem: On most of the med you have tides, small ones of about a meter or less, even so that means that, unlike on a floating pontoon, you cannot tie your boat very close to the quay. In fact for safety reasons that distance demands the use of a "passarela", a kind of board that connects the boat to the quay. Using it on the bow would not only give it a ridiculously uncomfortable inclination as it would made the fixation on the bow impossibly difficult since on the transom most use the boom lift line to secure the passarela.
In the Baltic, where I spent the summer, it's bows-to -- wow, is that tricky! I was lucky and only once had to do it in any cross-wind. You throw out the kedge from the stern, and approach the quay. Someone always takes your line (people help each other, because if they didn't, you would always be crashing into something), then you haul on the anchor rode with a winch (note to self -- before next summer, need to add a fairlead for that), and adjust your distance from the quay with the two lines.

How this could be done without a bow thruster, or single-handed, or in a strong cross wind, I have no idea. And getting ashore over the bow is a b*** when you have two meters of freeboard at the bow like I do (note to self -- need to buy that shockingly expensive bow ladder before next year).

Sometimes there's a lazy line, which slightly simplifies it, but it's still a tough way to berth. Staying at anchor and dinghying in is usually easier.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:46   #545
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
...
The current production boats that are used for cruising are at best a compromise as most of them do not have well thought out storage..The newer cruising designs are getting a bit faster but not that much actually .I was aboard a friends Hanse 53 in Turkey and it was extremely spacious ...Most of these boats seldom leave the dock ....
Vast exaggerations like these does not do you credit:
Modern designs with huge sterns have in fact more storage space than previous boats simply because on modern cruising designs the beam pulled back, besides to perform its sailing function, has as supplementary advantage to increase considerably the storage space on the cockpit.

In fact the 531 Hanse (53?) has a big storage space (almost as big as one of the cabins). That's true that if you chose to have a dinghy inflated on the Garage (yes the boat has a dinghy garage), the space is very reduced. But then this is an advantage, I mean the dinghy garage, since on coastal cruising you can use it and when you go for long range cruising you can deflate the dinghy and will have lots of space. The dinghy garage can be accessed by the cockpit too.
Hanse 531
https://www.hanseyachts.com/media/do...e-531-1631.pdf

Regarding the interior design I agree with you. It was very bad, not properly the layout but the furniture design. Really bad. I or you were not the ones that noticed that and the boat was substituted rapidly by the Hanse 545. The hull, that was a well designed one, was maintained but the boat got a new and more performant keel, new rudder and a much better designed interior, in fact the 545 is a 531MKII . Have a look, a great and very nice cruiser:
http://www.windcrafthanse.com/suppor...cification.pdf



Yes, modern mass market boats seldom leave the dock Go to this Year's list of entrants on the ARC (and to the list of past editions) and look at the boats that are making the cross: Surprise, the vast majority are mass production boats, cats and monohulls alike...hum, they seldom leave the dock is vastly exaggerated, it seems to me

You will see several Hanse there, some big ones. Lat year they performed remarkably well and regarding mass production boats to be" just a bit little faster" I think it is also a vast exageration. Looking only at the best sailing cruising boats (on the cruising division) and comparing them, I mean the best performing old designed "bluewater boats" (namely Moody, Nauticat and IP) with the best performing modern mass production cruisers on the last ARC, we can see that the modern mass production boats are more than "a bit faster"

Hanse 575: 10days 15 hours . engine time 38hours
Hanse 575: 11days 27hours . engine time 33hours
Dufour 385: 13days 03hours . engine time 13hours
Bavaria 40: 13days 04hours . engone time 19hours
Bavaria 42: 13days 23hours . Engine time 42 hours
Dufour 375: 14days 09hours . engine time 57 hours
Jeanneau 42: 13days 09hours . engine time 00hours
Bavaria 42: 14days 15 hours . enfine time 31hours
Hunter 36: 15days 09hours . engine time 45 hours

There were several older Moody on that rally, two Nauticats and also two Island Packet, that even if new are old designed. Let's compare the best results from the Mass production boats with the best results among them:

Moody 66: 13days 20hours . engine hours: They did not give them and prefered to take max penalization for use of engine.
Moody 47: 16days 10hours . engine hours: 40 hours
Moody 425: 16days 09hours . engine hours: 72 hours
Moody 425: 18days 06 hours . engine hours: Not given - Max penalization.
Nauticat 42: 20days 06hours . engine hours: 21 hours
Nauticat 44: 20days 07hours . engine hours: 36 hours
Island P. 485: 15days 11hours: engine hours: Not given - Max penalization.
Island Packet 380 - DNF

Of course it could be the (improbable) case that the better sailed mass production cruising boats, on the cruising division, were all very well sailed and all the Moody, Nauticat and IP were badly sailed, but then how the owners of boats that rarely leave the marina had learned how to sail them? And it is not supposed that the knowledgeable sailors that chose good old bluewater boats are very experienced sailors?
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:08   #546
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
In the Baltic, where I spent the summer, it's bows-to -- wow, is that tricky! I was lucky and only once had to do it in any cross-wind. You throw out the kedge from the stern, and approach the quay. Someone always takes your line (people help each other, because if they didn't, you would always be crashing into something), then you haul on the anchor rode with a winch (note to self -- before next summer, need to add a fairlead for that), and adjust your distance from the quay with the two lines.

How this could be done without a bow thruster, or single-handed, or in a strong cross wind, I have no idea. And getting ashore over the bow is a b*** when you have two meters of freeboard at the bow like I do (note to self -- need to buy that shockingly expensive bow ladder before next year).

Sometimes there's a lazy line, which slightly simplifies it, but it's still a tough way to berth. Staying at anchor and dinghying in is usually easier.
That explains why I see some Nordic boats with a complete anchor set up, I mean anchor stand and winch on the stern.
I have been on (probably) other Baltic places (Denmark) were they use a system used also on Italy (Adriatic): some huge wood poles, 4 of them and you put the boat between them. Needs some practice too because they are almost the wide of the boat beam and with boats with the maximum beam at the sternwell, you can imagine.

You are sailing the Baltic? Friends have told me that is a very beautiful (and expensive) place to sail. Lots of rocks too on the bottom. Dificult to navigate in some places.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:16   #547
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Re: Rudder Failures

I stand by my point that the bulk of the boats sit in marinas and are used for everything but sailing. Remember you are the guy that went over the numbers, multi thousands of boats made over the last 10 years or so and every year a few dozen show up for the ARC race, that hardly proves anything.

As far as race results with motoring allowed I really pay no attention to them even if someone keeps track of when they motor, assuming they are honest.
And you more than anyone should know that the sailor makes a huge difference in how many days a crossing takes no matter the boat.
I have seen slow boats sailed fast by very good sailors and I have seen fast boats sailed slow by beginners.
Some folks are using flying sails and some white sails only...big difference.
Of course I will concede that the newer boats are faster, there is no argument here but people use boats differently and make choices accordingly. My wife wanted a center cockpit, I personally never liked them and all my past offshore boats were modified ocean racers but I wanted her along, so guess what boat we have. That said, the Moody does just fine off the wind and can keep up with many boats her size and has a very comfortable motion. I'll let you know how we do in the Atlantic crossing(fingers crossed for decent winds)
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:40   #548
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Hehe you are a tricky one, ok with ball or without ball i know what you mean , in Las Palmas you have a mooring , yes with the line atached to the dock ok Pólux, Almerimar in the past have morring balls no idea now and in Mallorca you have the mooring to, Barcelona marina have a mooring to , at least in the past, is a matter of preferences and choices, if you want to be with your ass naked in the cockpit choose bow to if you want say hello and good morning to the crowd choose stern to. Voila!!!
You can be a pain in the ass. You discuss this as everything else, stubbornly, even when it has not any logic or any adherence with the reality. Yes, there are always some that do the opposite of what most do with good reasons and that is not only about old boats being better than new ones. Regarding privacy on a marina, I rarely go there and if I go it is because I have something to do that needs me to be there. I will not be on the boat most of the time. Have a look at some marinas and ports:











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Old 09-11-2014, 11:51   #549
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Re: Rudder Failures

Ooops. I did it again.

b.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:53   #550
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Re: Rudder Failures

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... That said, the Moody does just fine off the wind and can keep up with many boats her size and has a very comfortable motion. I'll let you know how we do in the Atlantic crossing(fingers crossed for decent winds)
Never said otherwise. I replied to you saying that the Hanse were marina boats.
Fair winds to you (truly) and please keep us posted. You are going at the same time of the ARC boats, to have some fun and eventually more support if something goes wrong, or you are just going as soon has you get a good weather passage?
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:08   #551
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That explains why I see some Nordic boats with a complete anchor set up, I mean anchor stand and winch on the stern.
I have been on (probably) other Baltic places (Denmark) were they use a system used also on Italy (Adriatic): some huge wood poles, 4 of them and you put the boat between them. Needs some practice too because they are almost the wide of the boat beam and with boats with the maximum beam at the sternwell, you can imagine.

You are sailing the Baltic? Friends have told me that is a very beautiful (and expensive) place to sail. Lots of rocks too on the bottom. Dificult to navigate in some places.
There's a long thread on it, worth reading.

In short, it is the most beautiful and interesting place I've sailed by far. Tremendous variety, extremely wild nature (which I did not expect). Nine different countries around its rim.

It's not actually that expensive -- provisions and, especially, alcohol is very expensive, but cheapest berthing I've ever seen anywhere in the world -- as little as 10 euros for a 54' boat. So total costs are modest.

There are millions of islands and extremely rocky bottom. To this day not completely charted. I know, as I hit an uncharted rock in Finland. Over four months, I sailed the Baltic from one end to the other, getting as far as Vyborg in Russia, in the extremely NE corner.

Absolutely gorgeous, and I'm going back next year -- I will leave 1 May and return 31 August like last year.
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:56   #552
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Never said otherwise. I replied to you saying that the Hanse were marina boats.
Fair winds to you (truly) and please keep us posted. You are going at the same time of the ARC boats, to have some fun and eventually more support if something goes wrong, or you are just going as soon has you get a good weather passage?
The ARC is not our cup of tea, I know the social side is wonderful but its a big price for a couple of good parties and the concept of additional safety is more a myth. Nope we always travel on our own but I understand how some get a feeling of safety when in groups even if they are spread all over the Atlantic but in my opinion it is just a feeling.
I'm working on a couple of projects(fixing your boat in exotic ports) and we should be ready to go in about a week to 10 days, depending on the weather. The ARC stops at CV Islands but we are going direct, it takes me a week to get in the grove and I don't want to do it twice. JC's new rally is leaving mid month from Lanzarote and one group of the ARC is leaving around the 3rd week from Grand Canaria. Somewhere in there if we find good northerlies we will be gone. If MarkJ is still around when we arrive in St. Maarten I might stop by and say Hi!
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Old 09-11-2014, 13:30   #553
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Re: Rudder Failures

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.. but cheapest berthing I've ever seen anywhere in the world -- as little as 10 euros for a 54' boat. So total costs are modest.

There are millions of islands and extremely rocky bottom. To this day not completely charted. I know, as I hit an uncharted rock in Finland. Over four months, I sailed the Baltic from one end to the other, getting as far as Vyborg in Russia, in the extremely NE corner.

Absolutely gorgeous, and I'm going back next year -- I will leave 1 May and return 31 August like last year.
I would like to sail there one day but I have heard that was expensive, well some things are for sure, I mean eating in restaurants for example.

Regarding leaving your boat there for winter: I heard that there was lot's of problems regarding ice and that many have the boats under cover even on heated store houses. How do you leave the boat there? On the hard? covered? what is the cost for the 9 months?
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Old 09-11-2014, 13:38   #554
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Re: Rudder Failures

I am toying with the idea of carrying a really heavy duty set of gudgeons and pintles on my Cape Dory 30 ketch just in case I was to somehow loses the rudder. My thinking is that as a last resort I could drill holes in the transom and mount these. Of course Id also have to have some form of emergency plywood rudder available and a tiller. I believe Fatty Goodlander has the shape of an emergency rudder penciled on a bulkhead. If needed he could cut out a rudder out of his bulkhead.

Just one more emergency preparedness idea.
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Old 09-11-2014, 15:25   #555
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I would like to sail there one day but I have heard that was expensive, well some things are for sure, I mean eating in restaurants for example.

Regarding leaving your boat there for winter: I heard that there was lot's of problems regarding ice and that many have the boats under cover even on heated store houses. How do you leave the boat there? On the hard? covered? what is the cost for the 9 months?
What I do is I sail out of the Kiel Canal, stop off in Helgoland for tax-free diesel and tax-free alcohol, then sail across the North Sea back to England to my mooring on the Hamble River in the Solent on the South Coast.

It's a lot of sailing, but (a) my mooring is free; and (b) I can sail in the winter on the South Coast of England, where palm trees grow (big contrast in climate to the Baltic); and (c) the best, by far, facilities for winter repairs are here; and (d) I can live on board when I have work in London.
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