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Old 08-11-2014, 17:54   #526
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Don't know - I was guessing. Looking at interior pictures, they looked like all-out cruising design and equipped to me. One can have a fast racing-quality boat and still be a comfortable cruiser, no?

Mark
I agree with you, is a preety good size , 60 ft, the only but i see is maybe crew, since the sundeer can be pushed by a couple the Swan maybe need a coupe of extra hands?
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Old 08-11-2014, 18:15   #527
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Re: Rudder Failures

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...
Just think of it, one day soon a 100% custom boat will be available from huge 3D printers. I have already started drawing ours ...

b.
Drawing is easy. I made that 10 years ago. The problem is to find the money to build it....it costs way more than a production boat
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Old 08-11-2014, 18:21   #528
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
...
I cannot say if IMOCAs are easy boats ever. ... But IMOCAs are beasts, immense and most possibly well beyond my fitness levels. Beautiful, with strong, well designed, well built rudders, and yet beyond even my wildest imaginary reach.
b.
Remember that on the Route du Rhum there is a guy with 75 years racing one. Ok he is a hell of a sailor but 75 years are 75 years. I assume you are not in so bad shape

Remember also that tiny Ellen Mac Arthur raced those beast without any problem....beating most of the much stronger and well fitted competitors
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:55   #529
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Re: Rudder Failures

Yes, but there is not one pure cruising boat in the lot, except perhaps the Gunboat, and that's a multi.

So I am still not aware of any pure cruising boat which is faster than the Sundeer, at least not a mono.

Maybe Beowulf -- but that was a one-off AFAIK.

Maybe some much bigger boats -- like the Swan 90. But I spent a couple of weeks at the helm of a Swan 90, right after a refit with brand new laminate sails.

But that's also not really what you'd call a pure cruising boat -- the sails alone cost more than a whole Sundeer -- that's a superyacht.

The Sundeer is an ordinary, modest cruising boat, of modest cost, basically a 45 footer in terms of interior volume, with a low, inexpensive, easy to handle, low stress rig, and even modest draft (less than my boat!). Let's exclude multis, cruiser/racers, and superyachts (anything over 75 feet), and I really don't know of anything which can keep up with a Sundeer.

I still say -- a unique design, and I still don't understand why no one has copied the formula.
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Old 09-11-2014, 04:59   #530
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Remember that on the Route du Rhum there is a guy with 75 years racing one. Ok he is a hell of a sailor but 75 years are 75 years. I assume you are not in so bad shape

Remember also that tiny Ellen Mac Arthur raced those beast without any problem....beating most of the much stronger and well fitted competitors
Sir Robin Knox-Johnston

His boat is for sale, by the way.

But really -- why are we talking about Open 60's, radical racing boats? These are about as much like our boats as a Formula One McClaren is like the family Ford.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:53   #531
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Re: Rudder Failures

Personally I really like the Sundeers, whether they are the fastest cruisers or not they are plenty fast. Dashew actually designed a cruiser, one with ample storage and proper access to all the systems. I like his single thru hulls with manifolds and the fact that he builds a spade rudder like they should be built for a cruiser.
The current production boats that are used for cruising are at best a compromise as most of them do not have well thought out storage(costs $$) bilge is super shallow and while they have tons of room the space is more a feeling that actually being well used. The newer cruising designs are getting a bit faster but not that much actually, racers for sure but we are talking cruising. How many new cruising designs have a space that can be used as a small work shop? Often you see stacking shelves for carrying spares and tools on some dedicated cruising designs. I was aboard a friends Hanse 53 in Turkey and it was extremely spacious and was a perfect party boat but I was looking for places to hang on to navigating from one end to the other. Not really a consideration in this design and I understand why. Most of these boats seldom leave the dock and of those that do most are day sailed and for those that venture further its from marina to marina with 1 out of a hundred actually doing some voyaging. It doesn't make sense to design the modern cruiser/racers to actually cruise because so few actually do it. So I guess the other choice is to get into a major refit to set the boat up for offshore cruising, some do, not many just a few out of the multi thousands that are built.
So back to the Sundeers, my bet is that the bulk of those boats are actually crossing oceans and cruising to the far corners of the earth, probably not the 1% that Polux talks about and its because they were properly designed for this purpose.
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Old 09-11-2014, 05:56   #532
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Normally those are out of the transom. Some smaller sailboats use them. On a bigger boat they are a liability when you are moored med style, with the stern to the quay. When the strong wind comes is normal the boats going against the wall (big fender on the the back)....and then goodbye rudders
So you see, again, we get to the point where we can see that people do not want good rudders. People want looks and comfort. Because one can moor bow in, but most cruisers cannot get off a boat moored bow in.

And a person who cannot get off a bow that is moored bow in definitely should not try to drive a Pogo, let alone an IMOCA.

Thus we can round up and claim that these inadequate rudders we are talking about in this thread are actually the best alternative for 99% of the cruisers.

And the remaining 1% have enough choice and imagination to get something else: stronger, safer, faster, whatever.

(1% is a drama figure here, but 99% is actually 99% accurate)

This is the Tao of the cruising world: all boats are equal. Get Bene.

b.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:39   #533
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Yes, but there is not one pure cruising boat in the lot, except perhaps the Gunboat, and that's a multi.
So I am still not aware of any pure cruising boat which is faster than the Sundeer, at least not a mono.
Maybe Beowulf -- but that was a one-off AFAIK
.
The Sundeer is an ordinary, modest cruising boat, of modest cost, basically a 45 footer in terms of interior volume, with a low, inexpensive, easy to handle, low stress rig, and even modest draft (less than my boat!). Let's exclude multis, cruiser/racers, and superyachts (anything over 75 feet), and I really don't know of anything which can keep up with a Sundeer.

I still say -- a unique design, and I still don't understand why no one has copied the formula.
Regarding being designed as cruisers, the Ourson rapide, a 60ft cruising boat is a cruiser not a racer and certainly way faster then a Beowulf 65. Its true that it is much more expensive than the Sundeer but that was not what we were talking about. The boat was sailed by a couple. Look again at the interiors and see what the designer say about the design brief:
"Ourson Rapide was born from a dream : The comfort of a cruising 60 footer, the speed of a full-carbon prototype, designed for short-hand sailing. For the couple of owners...A real cruiser :
Ourson Rapide features all the necessary comfort with four cabins, four bathrooms and a large, aft-located panoramic saloon, with a view to the sea from three sides. Air-conditioning and heating are adjusted per-cabin...
While sailing, Ourson Rapide honors all the research that we have done on the IMOCA 60’s. Its sail area/displacement ratio makes it sail faster than the wind n up to 10 knots TWS and more than 20 knots are easily reached in stronger wind. The C-Wing rig without runners or backstay makes sailing easy and allow for a large square top mainsail. All manoeuvres are hydraulic and let aft to the cockpit. The lifting keel allows entrance in most harbours, and lateral water ballasts make the boat sail faster and with less heel. Solar panels and a wind generator help reducing the fuel consumption."

Ourson Rapide | finot-conq architectes navals


Look at the interior:




Here you have another cruising boat of 65ft that is also certainly faster, the Spirit of adventure 65. This one has even a garage for a full inflated dinghy:

Spirit Of Adventure 65 Blue Water Cruising Yacht : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects





Regarding Beowulf, the last one is a 80ft sailboat and therefore bigger than the 75ft you talk about, before his 78ft motorboat. This boat is certainly a very expensive boat.

Beowulf - 80ft Skip Dashew Design

Anyway you were talking about a much smaller Beowulf, a 65ft. It seems that the answer to speed in what concerns Dashew is bigger and bigger boats, also more complex. Look at that rig and all those sails. He says that 8oft can be easily sailed by two people. Really? and the costs such a monster imply for two people?

Anyway regarding that 80fter I clearly would prefer this one, that besides having a much nicer interior has a dingy garage. I find it really odd that on a 80ft yacht the dinghy as to be carried over the deck. Probably the Shipman is not even more expensive due to a bigger production and it seems I am not the only one because while the Shipman has been a boat that is popular (sales) and the same cannot be said regarding the Beowulf.


Regarding the smaller Beowulf, that i would say is a more practical size for two, even if I find it too big, I didn't hear about any exploits with the boat, regarding passage times, neither that many have been made. Certainly the owner of such boats like to go fast but fact is that I don't have any reference times regarding the true performance of the boat. Maybe you have? I do not refer to instant speed but average speed on a transat or ocean race or rally. I suspect the boat is not as fast or practical as many want to make believe and that is one of the reasons the boat or that design formula was not a success.

Regarding very fast cruising boats at a relatively low price the best example I know off is the Pogo 50 that seems to be doing well in what regards sales. it has a good interior and a proven performance: it crossed the Atlantic on the ARC (racing class) in 8 days 20 hours with a crew of 5 that included two professional sailors but also the owner, the boat designer and the owner of shipyard and none of them is properly young.

Off course that is a racing performance but that shows the boat speed potential. The boat can be sailed fast even solo and has a nice interior for the ones that don't like an heavy interior.

Pogo-50 on Vimeo
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:47   #534
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Re: Rudder Failures

Nice looking workshop behind those carbon fiber steps!
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:59   #535
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sir Robin Knox-Johnston

His boat is for sale, by the way.

But really -- why are we talking about Open 60's, radical racing boats? These are about as much like our boats as a Formula One McClaren is like the family Ford.
Not really since many cruisers are based on those hulls. What is good to make a huge powerful beast of a boat tame enough to be sailed by a 75 years old man is good to have an inexperienced short crew sailing a much less powerful cruising sailboat.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:06   #536
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
So you see, again, we get to the point where we can see that people do not want good rudders. People want looks and comfort. Because one can moor bow in, but most cruisers cannot get off a boat moored bow in.

And a person who cannot get off a bow that is moored bow in definitely should not try to drive a Pogo, let alone an IMOCA.
...
b.
This one I don't get it. The reason why a boat is moored med style with the transom to the quay has nothing to do with the ability to come out of the boat by the bow or not but with the fact that for doing that you have to deploy the anchor (that will hold the boat) and then come backwards to the quay where the boat is tied. How do you suggest a boat should be moored med style with the bow to the quay?
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:02   #537
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Re: Rudder Failures

Well it can be a stern anchor as well although thats not very handy.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:16   #538
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Re: Rudder Failures

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This one I don't get it. The reason why a boat is moored med style with the transom to the quay has nothing to do with the ability to come out of the boat by the bow or not but with the fact that for doing that you have to deploy the anchor (that will hold the boat) and then come backwards to the quay where the boat is tied. How do you suggest a boat should be moored med style with the bow to the quay?

Because you have rusty marinas without mooring balls and marinas where anchoring is mandatory, both, pick the mooring ball and tie to the dock bow to or stern to, i docked both ways in the med, is a privacy requirement for many cruisers, i hate the med style docking system, i understand that there is the only way maybe to acomσdate such large number of boats , but man is a pain in the ass!!!!!
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:36   #539
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Re: Rudder Failures

Neil,
Couldn't agree more. Out of over 35 years of very active sailing I had only Med moored twice in my life before coming to the Med. We anchor as much as possible but sometimes for a variety of reasons you have to be in a marina. I am super careful and do everything as slow as possible but most of these cowboys back down at the same speed they go forward. Sometimes it is like bumper cars, you look close at boats here and there are dings and scratches all over the place, something we are not used to in NA.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:41   #540
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Re: Rudder Failures

Med docking with style.......
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