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Old 08-11-2014, 11:26   #496
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Neil I don,t think Polux means anything by his live a board comment, he just doesn't know. Like many full time cruisers we have a home but we choose to live on the boat as we sail the Atlantic and Pacific for the next 5 years or so. We have spent many years working and have contributed millions in tax to our society so its our turn to have some fun.
Robert, I am not particularizing and I have said that there was three types of live aboard :

"For the ones that live full time on a boat you will have three categories: the ones that practically don't cruise, probably the majority, the ones that cruise less than 2000nm a year that are the bigger part of the rest and a small minority that cruise extensively. Even so, among those it is normal on the winter months, to pass a considerably time at port, at the marina or anchored in sheltered waters and that is not cruising."


Obviously you belong to the last category, one that is small compared with all liveaboards.

Tell me what I don't know regarding this. I like to learn
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:48   #497
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...by the way, that no one has copied Dashew's Sundeer formula which trades length (pay for a 65' berth) for bloody everything else -- speed, seaworthiness, everything. The narrow beam and light weight let him get away with a lower rig and less draft. This is a simply superior formula -- why does no one make anything similar????
I agree with the rest of your post not with this: If narrow boats were faster with a small crew or solo then the Open 60 would be more narrow. Nothing prevents the designers to do them as narrow as they want, they only have a maximum beam. An American NA tried that years ago convinced that the boat would beat them all...but no, the boat was never competitive and was very difficult to sail solo (less stable, more roll).

It worth pointing also the the fastest Open 60 have not the maximum beam allowed but the beam that gives them the most effective balance regarding performance.

As you know Open 60 are made to sail around the world and that means sometimes against the wind, but most of the time downwind, a bit like all cruisers that sail extensively on the trade winds.

The Open 60's are not bad upwind and one of them hold the record of the world's fastest circumnavigation against the prevailing winds for many years but that record was beaten by a boat maximized to sail upwind... but that was a 85ft boat. Anyway, if an Open60 was to be designed for a circumnavigation against the prevailing wind would be less beamy but not as narrow as Dashew's boats unless the boat would sail only upwind and that would not be the case.

Dashew's boat was not that easy to sail and I am convinced that's why he turned to motorboats at an early age. The Open60's are so easy that even a good sailor with 75 years can race them, and that is much harder then cruising.
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:26   #498
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Trade winds are trade winds and when you travel around the world you are crazy if you don't follow the trade winds and that means downwind sailing.

Contrary to what you may think a Pogo is easy to sail. It is designed to be sailed on autopilot. On Solo races that type of boat has to go on while the only sailor is sleeping and go on at speed. probably the easiest type of boats to sail on autopilot.
But not everybody sails rtw. In fact, few boats do. This does not detract from what you noticed that an off the wind optimised design may in the long run be the ultimate cruising weapon. It is pretty sad that so many try to sail their upwind optimised sailing boats on predominantly downwind routes. It is even sadder when they try to argue that theirs are the best tools for the job.

Yes again. You are right here, but what I meant was that it takes higher level of sailing skills that very many cruisers simply lack. I think a light fast design (like a Pogo) can in fact be dangerous to most cruisers.

I sometimes teach sailing to people who do not feel they are quite up to handling a crossing. I think most people today never sail a dinghy before they buy a heavy, clumsy, ballasted boat bloated with cruising gear. However, Pogos are much more like dinghies than they are like what a typical cruising boat as we know it is.

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Old 08-11-2014, 12:34   #499
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Okay.. Many pages ago, I was asked to upload a picture of a rudder with a crack near the rudder post. It is on a Catalina in the marina I am located.

Any recommendations? New rudder is more than 1500 dollars.

I have a cat ketch with a transom hung rudder. Very easy to inspect.

I know the above topic is about rudders so in case we look to broaden the topic herein, I pose the following question:

What is the best boat and anchor combination? Please feel free to offer opinions, statistics, and expressions of opinion based on empirical experience, readings, gossip, or wishful thinking.
It is also okay to take in consideration all sailing conditions that have been done in the past and the absolute worse case scenario that could happen.

Include pictures or drawings.

Well, I hope folks get a laugh or at least a smile at the question posed, but truly, offer ideas about the rudder mentioned above. I am learning and helping a buddy on the rudder.

Happy sailing.
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:49   #500
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post

(...) to pass a considerably time at port, at the marina or anchored in sheltered waters and that is not cruising."

(...)
How come?

I thought cruising is everything we do in our boats that is not sailing.

Hence Cruisers & Sailing Forum.

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Old 08-11-2014, 13:21   #501
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I agree with the rest of your post not with this: If narrow boats were faster with a small crew or solo then the Open 60 would be more narrow. Nothing prevents the designers to do them as narrow as they want, they only have a maximum beam. An American NA tried that years ago convinced that the boat would beat them all...but no, the boat was never competitive and was very difficult to sail solo (less stable, more roll).

It worth pointing also the the fastest Open 60 have not the maximum beam allowed but the beam that gives them the most effective balance regarding performance.

As you know Open 60 are made to sail around the world and that means sometimes against the wind, but most of the time downwind, a bit like all cruisers that sail extensively on the trade winds.

The Open 60's are not bad upwind and one of them hold the record of the world's fastest circumnavigation against the prevailing winds for many years but that record was beaten by a boat maximized to sail upwind... but that was a 85ft boat. Anyway, if an Open60 was to be designed for a circumnavigation against the prevailing wind would be less beamy but not as narrow as Dashew's boats unless the boat would sail only upwind and that would not be the case.

Dashew's boat was not that easy to sail and I am convinced that's why he turned to motorboats at an early age. The Open60's are so easy that even a good sailor with 75 years can race them, and that is much harder then cruising.
This discussion already goes beyond my technical knowledge, so I probably don't have the right to any opinion. But I don't see how you can compare the case of Open 60's to cruising boats. Open 60's rely a lot on form stability and huge sail area. With that much sail, the drag of more beam is less important than the form stability you gain. Dashew's boats are, as far as I know, the fastest cruising boats ever made, and are even faster when you consider that his 65, for example, has the interior volume (and price, more or less) or a 48. I have never heard anyone say they are hard to sail, and I would think that on the contrary with their modest height rigs and modest sail area they ought to be massively easy to sail. But this is pure speculation on my part, as I have never sailed either a Sundeer, nor an Open 60.
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Old 08-11-2014, 14:14   #502
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
If you are talking about Lagoons and company, the ones that sell more, I don't agree. You can compare those with modern mass production cruisers. Unless you are calling those light designs (for some here they seem to be).

Yes, I meant to compare them to the modern production cruisers like Bene, Hunter, etc that seem to be taking a beating here as not sufficient for open ocean sailing/cruising.


No, it is for a seworthiness reason, I don't mean the smaller ones are not perfectly safe for the use they were intended, but they just don't pass RCD for class A boats (offshore). They can only pass with about 36ft and have to be very heavy cats to compensate with weight the stability that size (that they don't have) gives them. A huge stability is fundamental for a cat to be safe offshore.

While they may not pass some type of EU government regulation, that does not mean they are not safe. You mentioned needing to be >40' to be safe. There are a lot of ocean safe multis <40'. Lots of Lagoon 38's, Manta 38's, Seawind 1160's, Island Spirit 35/37, FP Athena 38, and a slew of others <40' that are perfectly safe ocean going vessels that do not meet a specific region/country government regulation.

That is not true that there are not on the market smaller cats, Lagoon has a 38 and Fountain Pajot a 36, but they are heavy boats and therefore slow. Those two brands are the ones that sell more cats.

Yes, I used 40' loosely because that was the number you used. For many of these catamaran models, there is no real difference between 37-42' because they made model changes by simply drawing out the hulls longer. For example, the Manta 38/40/42 are the exact same boat. The Island Spirit 35/37/40/41 are all the exact same boat. Seawind also has some models like this.

Most of the Voyage cat I see, at least in Europe, have 45 or over and are performance cats, light ones that in fact have more to do with performance cruisers than with heavy condo cats.
Goodness! You label Voyage catamarans as light performance boats and not "condo cats"? I don't think you have any experience with multihulls at all!

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Old 08-11-2014, 14:23   #503
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This is actually a great point. Do multi-hullers typically have this same type discussion - where the only "bluewater" multis are the Island Packet cats from the 80's or whatever?
I have never come across this type of discussion. Multi people understand that weight and thickness of glass does not equal strength, and most multis now are built using directional fibers and good engineering - not slobbing on 3" of CSM and woven roving and being proud of it.

We do have discussions around heavy/slow vs light/fast, but rarely about "blue waterness".

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Old 08-11-2014, 14:37   #504
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
. . . now are built using directional fibers and good engineering - not slobbing on 3" of CSM and woven roving and being proud of it.. . .
You owe me for the G&T which sprayed out my nose when I read this . . .

Very pithy expression of a very true phenomenon . . . .
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Old 08-11-2014, 15:02   #505
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
This discussion already goes beyond my technical knowledge, so I probably don't have the right to any opinion. But I don't see how you can compare the case of Open 60's to cruising boats. Open 60's rely a lot on form stability and huge sail area. With that much sail, the drag of more beam is less important than the form stability you gain. Dashew's boats are, as far as I know, the fastest cruising boats ever made, and are even faster when you consider that his 65, for example, has the interior volume (and price, more or less) or a 48. I have never heard anyone say they are hard to sail, and I would think that on the contrary with their modest height rigs and modest sail area they ought to be massively easy to sail. But this is pure speculation on my part, as I have never sailed either a Sundeer, nor an Open 60.
It seems to me that saying that the Sundeer 65 is the fastest cruising boat ever made is a vast exaggeration. There are lot's of performance cruiser of that size faster. If the boat was that faster surely would be used for racing, I mean cruising/racing, like the ARC or that Transat for big yachts (mostly cruising yachts) from East to west. Never saw one racing.

Regarding an Open60 concept you are being misleaded regarding drag with what you see of the boat out of water. What counts regarding drag is the wet area, what is on the water and the wet area of a Open60 is this:

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Old 08-11-2014, 15:08   #506
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
How come?

I thought cruising is everything we do in our boats that is not sailing.

Hence Cruisers & Sailing Forum.

b.
Yes, I sail a lot here on my chair, I mean in winter. out of the winter I am sailing without the chair....and out of sail forums
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Old 08-11-2014, 15:14   #507
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Greatketch33 View Post
Okay.. Many pages ago, I was asked to upload a picture of a rudder with a crack near the rudder post. It is on a Catalina in the marina I am located.

Any recommendations? New rudder is more than 1500 dollars.

I have a cat ketch with a transom hung rudder. Very easy to inspect.

I know the above topic is about rudders so in case we look to broaden the topic herein, I pose the following question:

What is the best boat and anchor combination? Please feel free to offer opinions, statistics, and expressions of opinion based on empirical experience, readings, gossip, or wishful thinking.
It is also okay to take in consideration all sailing conditions that have been done in the past and the absolute worse case scenario that could happen.

Include pictures or drawings.

Well, I hope folks get a laugh or at least a smile at the question posed, but truly, offer ideas about the rudder mentioned above. I am learning and helping a buddy on the rudder.

Happy sailing.

Looks like from the picture a goofy patch of something, maybe a mush of resin alone , is not really clear, but in your shoes i drop the rudder , sand the old antifouling and try to reach gelcoat if there is any left, grind the crack until there is solid material, maybe that rudder is condemned to Split open the 2 halves and a rebuild in order, probably or not the rudder stock is intact , no cracks or corrosión, so maybe is just a FG job ...in any case drop the rudder and tell us what you found it!!
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Old 08-11-2014, 15:25   #508
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Re: Rudder Failures

The Sundeer 60 have a aprox hull speed around 16 knts, i love the concept, narrow hulls , long waterline with short rigs, i mean a Rocket!! able to run close to 300 miles per day, i think so, in the right conditions,

Where is Jedi when we need it!!!!!
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Old 08-11-2014, 15:35   #509
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Re: Rudder Failures

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But not everybody sails rtw. In fact, few boats do. This does not detract from what you noticed that an off the wind optimised design may in the long run be the ultimate cruising weapon. It is pretty sad that so many try to sail their upwind optimised sailing boats on predominantly downwind routes. It is even sadder when they try to argue that theirs are the best tools for the job.

Yes again. You are right here, but what I meant was that it takes higher level of sailing skills that very many cruisers simply lack. I think a light fast design (like a Pogo) can in fact be dangerous to most cruisers.

I sometimes teach sailing to people who do not feel they are quite up to handling a crossing. I think most people today never sail a dinghy before they buy a heavy, clumsy, ballasted boat bloated with cruising gear. However, Pogos are much more like dinghies than they are like what a typical cruising boat as we know it is.

b.
Yes, a dinghy but a dinghy with a huge stability, so huge that is needed to be very stupid and abuse the boat hugely to create a risk situation. I did not sailed a Pogo but a similar boat, an Opium 39. Some day I will. I have a Belgium friend that has one. Not saying that is a boat for beginners but certainly not more difficult (and probably easier) than a 40ft performance cruiser, like a First 40 or my own boat.

There are a company on Greece that charter Pogos. Normally when a boat is difficult the charter implies a skipper. Not in this case and I did not hear that they had problems with the boats and the guys that charter their boats are sailors that heard about Pogos, never sailed one and are eager to push the boat to see if all the heard about it is true. Not the normal Mom and Dad normal charter crew. Look at this video that some charters made on the Pogo and see how badly the boat is sailed with strong downwind wind with lots of the main up and no frontal sail. I believe that if it was on my boat I would have broached. Only the huge directional stability of the boat is able to keep it on his tracks. That shows the kind of abuse that boat can take.

For a cruiser sailing the Pogo this non sense is out of question and in fact the boat can go very fast with very little sail with lot's of reserve stability. very easy to sail on autopilot too. The Pogo, contrary to other performance cruisers is easy to sail fast even solo and that is what makes it so popular.
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Old 08-11-2014, 15:55   #510
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Re: Rudder Failures

I will agree here. Like a First, just two steps further. Say a shortened and differently optimised Farr 40. Deal?

IMOCAs and VORs are sailed by autopilots too. We will call them easy boat then. Sorry, bad joke. I will not. I will not judge a boat by an autopilot. I will judge a sailor by their ability to sail a boat. The spectrum is wild.

Now Firsts are not typically a cruiser's choice. Oceanises are. Or am I living in some end of the world marina that attracts only the oldest and clunkiest of the cruising crowd?

If a boat has loads of stability it does not imply we are supposed to drive her as if she were a brick. THIS IS HOW RUDDER DAMAGE OCCURS: ignorant sailors having no idea of when a boat is pushed too hard, with forces that could normally be converted to speed but are only converted to extra strain.

And last, why buy a full blood boat and sail her at any less than her full potential?

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