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Old 08-11-2014, 07:49   #481
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay - I've learned 3 things:

1. Some dudes will say LITERALLY ANYTHING to try to maintain their seriously weak argument. Polux is really good at mopping the floor with them - but please, guys, have some dignity here. Read what's actually posted before you wax poetic. And stick to the facts...that you actually know.

2. As long as the subject is boats and sailing, who gives a damn where the thread meanders? This has been a very educational and entertaining read. And it's just getting started. So stay frosty.

3. Even guys I disagree vehemently in this thread are guys I'd definitely share a beer with. NielP and I have busted each other's teeth a few times, but he's still willing to give me some solid advice when I need it.

That, my friends, is sailors. And that's why this crazy world of sailing is so damn cool.

Point number 1.No idea the others, i guess anyone here have some kind of idea or personal experience , Pólux is really good with the PC mouse and founding links and pics, personal experience in some actual matters is non existent and in other points make sense.

Me, i start sailing at the age of 16, im 42 right now, i own 3 diferents kind of boats in that period, from a fin keeler spade ruder 40 footer to a heavy cruising boat like the CSY 44 with a beautiful britton chance 37 in between , fantastic boat... I be involved in almost everything related with boats, from deliverys to boat management, brokerage, chárter , and since last 8 years boat repairs, i own a rigging shop 50% with my partner and do extensive refits or boat projects in between. So when i point that the rudder stock in that beneteau 50 is weak and poorly executed my intention is not bash the boat in question , most likely notify future buyers and actual owners about that, at the end you dont loose nothing to take a look at that rudder stock, right?

Point number 2. I agree 100% , who care the title?

Point number 3. Oh thx for the beer!! anytime anywhere!!
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:15   #482
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I find odd you comparing a Salona 45 in what regards performance with a Beneteau oceanis 421. There is no possible comparison in what regards speed or pointing ability. The Salona 45 has a IRC rating of 1.103 about the same that a First 47.7. Both boats would smoke the poor Oceanis 421.

Yes, waterline length counts but that is really important on similar type boats. A performance cruiser boat with a smaller waterline can be much faster then a much bigger heavy and relatively slow boat (for the size), like a Moody 54.

I believe with good reason that a Salona 45 or a First 47.7 will be considerably faster then a Moody 52 in most conditions.

If we compare the PHRF of a not much smaller Moody, the 47, we can see that the PHRF is only 102 while the PHRF of a Beneteau 423 is between 93 and 102. Compared with that the PHRF of a First 44.7 show a incomparably faster sailing boat (between 33 and 39) and the Salona 45 is about as fast as the First 44.7.

From 102 to 33/39 goes a huge difference and I don't believe that a Moody 52 would be incomparably faster than the more modern Moody 47.

Regarding smaller boats with a much smaller LWL being much faster on ocean conditions than a much bigger boat look at the time a Pogo 30 took to cross the Atlantic and compare it with the time of some other much bigger but also much heavier cruisers:

"On the last edition, on the Cruising division a much smaller Pogo 30 had done the crossing in 13 days and 14 hours (it was a bad year) while a Beneteau Oceanis 473 took 18 days 06 hours, another one 18days 14 hours, an Halberg Rassy 19 14d 15h, an Island Packet 15days 11 hours, a Moddy 422 19 days 00h, a Trintella 57 19days 20 hours ....Yes, it can be more uncomfortable but also much more fun, if you like sailing and ...almost more a week at the sea is also not very comfortable.
Take into account that the bigger boats motored a lot, having big diesel tanks while tanks, while the little Pogo only wasted 33L on the crossing, probably mostly to charge the batteries.
"
You are confusing the M54:

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From the 2000's; D/L of under 200 (in the range of racer/cruisers) and bulb keel

with the M52:

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A heavy long-keeled motor-sailer from the 1970's -- a very different thing! (A beautiful boat, but still!).

Nor does the rating of the original M47:

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From the 1980's have anything to do with it.

The M54 is more like the M64, designed at the same time, in fact, they are almost identical except for scale. An M64, Independence, finished first among cruising boats and fourth overall in the 2002 ARC on absolute time; ahead of all of the cruising boats both mono and multi, and ahead of most of the racing boats. https://www.worldcruising.com/conten...02_results.pdf. Independence, a cruising boat with Dacron sails, took just an hour and a half longer than a Swan 70 in the racing division.

Of course the ARC is not an actual race, but still.


So it would be not be correct to describe the M54 as "somewhat slow". From real experience, as opposed to "I read it somewhere", or "I am guessing based on looking at the ratings of different unrelated boats", it is a knot or two faster than the Salona 45 on every point of sail. Except in two situations -- in very light wind (under 12 knots), where the Salona's big SA/D becomes a benefit (it's a deficit in stronger conditions). And in 25 to 30 knots running downwind, where the Salona can already surf (the M54 needs at least 30). At other times, there's just no way that the Salona can put out the boat speed to keep up.

The Salona is very good downwind (and of the ones we chartered had a big spinnaker). It surfs easily and is very controllable. With the deep keel, it is also very good upwind. I don't like the Morse control on the cockpit wall, where you can't reach it and steer at the same time, but that's a minor detail.

But the Bene is no slouch, either. In stronger conditions (Aegean in the Meltemi), the Salona's SA/D requires early reefing. The Bene is more stable and more stiff (the rig is lower, too). It is a very sweet sailing boat and not dramatically slower than the Salona except in light wind.

The Pogo is a highly isolated exception to the rule that on long passages, passage speed is highly correlated to waterline length. See Evan Starzinger's large study of passage speeds. To make a 30 foot boat make 200 miles a day -- well above hull speed -- day in and day out is an extreme sport, requiring extreme efforts, no matter how fast the boat is. This is not applicable to cruising boats.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:03   #483
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Multihulls have far more in common with the light designs not considered "blue water" discussed here than they do with the heavier "blue water" designs.

In fact, they are almost exactly those boats in pretty much every design category (spade rudders, thin glass over cores, large windows, big cockpits, modern interiors, etc). Should they also be viewed as unsuitable for serious cruising?

I don't mean for this to go into a multi debate - just wanted to point out that multi's are pretty much built along the lines of the newer mono designs (well, it is actually the reverse, but makes the same point).

Mark
This is actually a great point. Do multi-hullers typically have this same type discussion - where the only "bluewater" multis are the Island Packet cats from the 80's or whatever?
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:31   #484
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Polux is right there are very few cruisers,mostly holidayers that sail and live a board for a few weeks to a few months per year, which is fine but the boat choices are different. The ones with deeper pockets sometimes choose multi hulls, which is fine to....

I,m going to take back the word serious as it was a poor choice and replace it with full time. The fat slug Moody 42 sailed from Gibraltar to the Canaries in a little over 4 days, 2 days of light winds and 2 days of stronger winds,the last 2 days we covered 342 miles with a little help at times from a favourable current, not bad for a fat ass cruiser.
Nobody said that your boat was a slug. It is has much a slug as mine is a racing boat. Performance of sailboats improves with each new design of the same brand. Boat design is in continuous evolution, as any other object with a function. The design of my boat has about 10 years, the new generation of performance racers is slightly faster than the generation of those with 10 years. That difference is bigger if we talk of similar types of boats 20 years ago and very considerable if we consider 30 years.

That does not make older boats slugs and some brands had better and faster boats than others, boats more advanced for their time. There are also several type of boats to consider, even if suitable for the same purpose, but responding to different tastes and lifestyles. Probably regarding your type of boat and the sailing it provides the best boat today is, in my opinion, the XCYachts.

And I said type of sailing because in what regards cruising the amenities the XC offers are only slightly better than the ones that a XP yacht offer and I would prefer that for cruising. The Xc would sail more sedately (and slower) and allows you to carry more tankage, has a bigger refrigerator, has a more luxurious interior and can carry more stuff. It all depends if your lifestile need that extra space/comfort and if you like (or not) to sail more sportively. If a Pogo is too zen for me, in what regards the interior, a XP 44 would be just perfect.

The Xp44 interior:

[url=




The two boats (XC 45 and XP 44) would be suitable for living aboard for extended periods and the difference in what regards their seaworthiness or their ability to long range cruising would not be very different. Choosing one over the other would have more to do with personal lifestyle and tastes.

I would chose the Xp44 the same way I choose to cruise on Europe my tuned MR2 instead of my Ford, even if the Ford has a lot more living and storage space. Most would do otherwise, but both are fit for cruising, in their own way, even if most cars don't cruise, or the people that drive them don't do that.

Regarding cruising and cruising boats and the difference between Europe and the US, I see it like this:

There are much more sailboats in Europe than in the US, there are much more sailors buying new sailboats in Europe and there are much more people cruising them.

I don't know if there are more people living permanently on their boats in Europe, since there are much more sailing boats here, but probably in percentage there are more living permanently on the US than in Europe.

Some Europeans may circumnavigate or make for a year an Atlantic tour, but most of the them will, after that, return to their homes on the winter and sail only outside of winter. It is a question of preference that has to do with comfort, pleasure (or lack of it) and time for the family. Not criticizing options, only trying to analyze them.

Most European cruisers that own a sailboat use it out of the winter. There are also some that have a sailboat and use it very little, but I would not call them cruisers simply because they don't cruise, but like to sail and use their boat anyway.

The market here goes more and more for three basic utilization of a cruising sailboat: Daysailer and weekend cruiser; charter; Cruising for several months.

The age of the boat buyers raised sharply on the last years not because there are less cruising (quite the contrary) but because, there was a rapid increase in cost of maintenance of a boat and the ones that don't have the time to sail or cruise extensively a boat had opted for charter.

The increase of the number of charters on Europe on the last years increased so extensively that on some places you will find 1 cruising boat for 10 charters or more. The sailors that understood that they don't have time for cruising but want a boat for the weekend or daysailig or all that and ocasional racing had a market answer in the proliferation of boats more adapted to that utilization, faster and more rewarding boats to sail, but in most cases not cheaper, quite the contrary.

The other market sector regarding cruising boats in Europe is the ones that had charted for years and only buy a boat near or at the time of their retirement and choose to pass part of the year living on their sailboat, most of them on the Med (better climate). They are much more than the Americans that take this option and the number of new boats sold to them is huge. Some of those will make the ARC and will sail the Caribbean for a year before returning home, to the same routine. I would say that living for 3, 4 or 5 months in a boat while cruising is not only to live extensively on a sailboat but in many cases to cruise extensively.

For the one that live full time on a boat you will have three categories: the ones that practically don't cruise, probably the majority, the ones that cruise less than 2000nm a year that are the bigger part of the rest and a small minority that cruise extensively. Even so, among those it is normal on the winter months, to pass a considerably time at port, at the marina or anchored in sheltered waters and that is not cruising.

So, as you can see, what you called previously "serious" cruising is a minority even among those that live full time on a sailboats. A minority inside a minority and among those I know of people living in all type of boats, much depending on lifestyle and the money they have.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:48   #485
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You are confusing the M54:

Attachment 91121

From the 2000's; D/L of under 200 (in the range of racer/cruisers) and bulb keel

with the M52:

Attachment 91122

A heavy long-keeled motor-sailer from the 1970's -- a very different thing! (A beautiful boat, but still!).

Nor does the rating of the original M47:

Attachment 91123

From the 1980's have anything to do with it.
...
So it would be not be correct to describe the M54 as "somewhat slow". ...
Yes, you are right.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:02   #486
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Point number 1.No idea the others, i guess anyone here have some kind of idea or personal experience , Pólux is really good with the PC mouse and founding links and pics, personal experience in some actual matters is non existent and in other points make sense.

Me,...im 42 right now, i own 3 diferents kind of boats in that period, from a fin keeler spade ruder 40 footer to a heavy cruising boat like the CSY 44 with a beautiful britton chance 37 ..
..
See, I am more experienced: I have 61, own a full keeler, a mass production mass market cruiser and a low production performance cruiser and sailed many other types of boats, including the Pogo type

I also have been listening to what others say about their sailboats (and I am not talking about what owners of old boat say on internet), read a huge quantity of test sails, visited several sailboat factories, talked with several boat designers and boat builders (not old boats) and I sail about 2500nm year.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:17   #487
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Re: Rudder Failures

Pólux, you say...



For the one that live full time on a boat you will have three categories: the ones that practically don't cruise, probably the majority, the ones that cruise less than 2000nm a year that are the bigger part of the rest and a small minority that cruise extensively. Even so, among those it is normal on the winter months, to pass a considerably time at port, at the marina or anchored in sheltered waters and that is not cruising



This quite wrong close to BS , sorry if sounds rude,,,sure you have a percentage of people stuck in someplaces for long, then we have the other part of the cake, people actually cruising and stoping in places for a period, but they are actually cruising, repairs, hurricane seasons, personal problems, etc, etc.. but they are cruising, take for example this, i have a couple of spanish friends doing a TW in a wauquiez pilothouse, they take time to see places and even sometimes haul the boat in some remote place for months or when the season is over to make repairs or visit the familys, they make more tan 2000 miles for season , sometimes even more tan 5000 miles, they expend long periods to see really well the islands, continents etc... this are the big numbers to me, i see each year dozens and dozen of boats in route to Panama for a Pacific cruise and many for a TW , and i see dozens and dozens of EU cruisers returning to EU after a short stay in the caribbean, so under your logic the couple who stop in NZ for 5 months to do repairs , ciclone season etc,,,, they swicht status from cruisers to no cruisers...or im wrong or i miss something in your post!

By far, here in the caribbean you see more cruisers from USA , CANADA, than EU cruisers, you explain it very well, EU cruisers dont have the time to full time cruise, liveaboard...even in south america things are changing, i never see so many boats with flags like Brasil, Argentina, etc..

Even Russia and countrys where sailing is a rare ocurrence...

The ARC is a good example, my 2 cents the 80% of ARC boats return to europe after a season in the caribbean , the rest choose to haul out the boat for hurricane season in the south side and return the next year and just a small percentage drive the bow to Panama...Fact.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:27   #488
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Multihulls have far more in common with the light designs not considered "blue water" discussed here than they do with the heavier "blue water" designs.
..
I don't mean for this to go into a multi debate - just wanted to point out that multi's are pretty much built along the lines of the newer mono designs (well, it is actually the reverse, but makes the same point).
Only if you talking about performance cats. If you are talking about Lagoons and company, the ones that sell more, I don't agree. You can compare those with modern mass production cruisers. Unless you are calling those light designs (for some here they seem to be). In Europe what is called a light design are performance monohulls (that are lighter than main mass production cruisers). Those you can compare with performance cats.


Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
My point was on design and build of multis, not size. In regards to size, this thread has held up the Bene 50 as a poster child, and almost all of the boats discussed have been >45'. The actual boats owned by many of the contributors to this thread are 45'+.

The reason few are out cruising in multi's <40' is because there have been almost none of them being built in the past 20yrs. I wouldn't say it is for safety reasons - lots of 35-40' multis have been built for, and are sailing, the open oceans quite safely.
No, it is for a seworthiness reason, I don't mean the smaller ones are not perfectly safe for the use they were intended, but they just don't pass RCD for class A boats (offshore). They can only pass with about 36ft and have to be very heavy cats to compensate with weight the stability that size (that they don't have) gives them. A huge stability is fundamental for a cat to be safe offshore.

That is not true that there are not on the market smaller cats, Lagoon has a 38 and Fountain Pajot a 36, but they are heavy boats and therefore slow. Those two brands are the ones that sell more cats.

Most of the Voyage cat I see, at least in Europe, have 45 or over and are performance cats, light ones that in fact have more to do with performance cruisers than with heavy condo cats.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:47   #489
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Re: Rudder Failures

Lagoon and FP are french brands meaning EU brands, you try to say that you dont see this boats often in EU?? they are all here in the other side of the pond? just curious...
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:56   #490
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Pólux, you say...
For the one that live full time on a boat you will have three categories: the ones that practically don't cruise, probably the majority, the ones that cruise less than 2000nm a year that are the bigger part of the rest and a small minority that cruise extensively. Even so, among those it is normal on the winter months, to pass a considerably time at port, at the marina or anchored in sheltered waters and that is not cruising


This quite wrong close to BS , sorry if sounds rude,,,sure you have a percentage of people stuck in someplaces for long, then we have the other part of the cake, people actually cruising and stoping in places for a period, but they are actually cruising, repairs, hurricane seasons, personal problems, etc, etc.. but they are cruising,....so under your logic the couple who stop in NZ for 5 months to do repairs , ciclone season etc,,,, they swicht status from cruisers to no cruisers...or im wrong or i miss something in your post!
By far, here in the caribbean you see more cruisers from USA , CANADA, than EU cruisers,.
...
That is what I call a very confusing post. You seem to give me reason all the way. A sailor is cruising....when he is cruising. When he is at any other place for a long time and not on a moving boat he is not cruising, at least with the boat. There are many ways a person can cruise. I have cruised with a boat, a car, an airplane and a motorcycle, some cruise with a bicycle and some even cruise walking.
To cruise is: "To sail or travel about, as for pleasure or reconnaissance." To cruise is something a person can do but does not define what you are and how you have contributed to society: A Doctor, a Teacher, a Boat builder, an Engineer and so on, all those are that and can be also cruisers when they cruise. When they are not cruising they hopefully are something else (a Doctor, a Lawyer a boat builder) and are doing other activities that can be has important or more then cruising.

You mean a cruiser is someone that cruises all the time and does nothing neither contributes to society? only if is father was very rich and the guy a spoiled kid

Regarding the number of living aboard for sure you know that on the US by far their bigger number are the ones that don't have the money for a house? Most of those don't move and the others that sail do it just for a very small number of miles and most of the time because they have too.

Regarding the average number of miles that liveaboards do (not the ones that don't move) that does not come from thin air. On another popular forum with many live aboard the question was raised in form of a thread and it was with surprise that I found out that many popular members, that lived aboard, sailed less miles than the ones I sailed when I sailed only a month and a half by year and almost all sailed less than what I sail know.

Regarding having less European boats on the Caribbean what a surprise Compare that percentage with the American boats cruising on the med and you will see that Europeans on the Caribbean are much, much more than Americans on the med. You see some American flags, but only 1 out of 100 is an american boat. The other are Turkish boats. It is popular to have there an American Flag, probably by fiscal reasons.

Did you noticd that the Med is in Europe and the Caribbean is in America?
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:02   #491
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This is actually a great point. Do multi-hullers typically have this same type discussion - where the only "bluewater" multis are the Island Packet cats from the 80's or whatever?
I agree that it's an extremely interesting point.

I am a dyed-in-the-wool mono guy, but there are a few things about performance cats (not condomarans) that I really love. The total lack of ballast puts these in a difference class in terms of wetted surface and inertia.

A lighter boat with less wetted surface needs less ballast and will be more responsive and faster. Less mass makes the motion less comfortable, but that can be made up for with waterline length and size in general. And that describes the evolution of modern boats -- the Contessa 32 (wonderful boat) has become, say, a Bene 42, which will be just as seaworthy and stable because it is that much bigger, but incomparably faster.


I'm really surprised, by the way, that no one has copied Dashew's Sundeer formula which trades length (pay for a 65' berth) for bloody everything else -- speed, seaworthiness, everything. The narrow beam and light weight let him get away with a lower rig and less draft. This is a simply superior formula -- why does no one make anything similar????
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:04   #492
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Re: Rudder Failures

Lol! Liveaboards here are homeless from USA!! or poor people without financial resources to live diferent? cant believe you say that!! I live in my boat, but you knwo what, i have a house to, and enough financial resources to afford another boat if loose my actual boat.. i see many retired people from USA who have a house , family, kids, and they choose to liveaboard in a boat and do fulltime cruising. what you say is no sense dude....
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:13   #493
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Lagoon and FP are french brands meaning EU brands, you try to say that you dont see this boats often in EU?? they are all here in the other side of the pond? just curious...
You continue to confuse me. I was replying to another poster that said that there was no smaller cats on the market (referring Smaller the 40ft). I pointed out that the two biggest manufacturers of cats, Lagoon and Fountain Pajot had on their catalogs cats smaller that 40ft.

If they are the biggest sellers it is obvious that there will be some in the States, don't you think so?
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:16   #494
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Re: Rudder Failures

Neil I don,t think Polux means anything by his live a board comment, he just doesn't know. Like many full time cruisers we have a home but we choose to live on the boat as we sail the Atlantic and Pacific for the next 5 years or so. We have spent many years working and have contributed millions in tax to our society so its our turn to have some fun.
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:20   #495
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Lol! Liveaboards here are homeless from USA!! or poor people without financial resources to live diferent? cant believe you say that!! I live in my boat, but you knwo what, i have a house to, and enough financial resources to afford another boat if loose my actual boat.. i see many retired people from USA who have a house , family, kids, and they choose to liveaboard in a boat and do fulltime cruising. what you say is no sense dude....
I mean this type of live aboard. For what I understood from other forum discussions most (but obviously not all) that live in a boat in the US do that for economic reasons and not for cruising. Those never cruise.
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