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Old 06-11-2014, 12:41   #406
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
....
The point is that all boats -- production or not, cheap or expensive -- are holes in the water you pour money into. The idea of "holding its value" is ridiculous when applied to any boat, production or not.

I doubt that cheap production boats "depreciate" any more than expensive ones do. Nor do I see any evidence that their useful life is any less.
I certainly agree with that. No way you are going to make money owning a boat

But regarding value a very expensive boat normally hold value not as well as a cheaper boat at least on the first 10 years. The reason is that owning a very expensive boat is many times a question of status. Owning the same boat 7 years later doesn't give any status anymore but if the the normal depreciation should apply, the used price would be still very high...except that now rich guys are not interested anymore...so the price goes down till being only slightly higher than normal mass production boats...and then the average guy will make an effort and will buy it. That's how it happens at least in Europe.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:53   #407
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Why do we always have these arguments? (Although I have to say this has been one of the more civilized ones). Why can't people just be happy liking the boats they like? People have different taste and values in this, just like in so many other things in life, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why that bothers some people.
I think your entire post is very well reasoned.

As for this last part, the answer is really simple..."production boats" as a whole are pretty much continuously attacked in forums as not only being "sub-standard", but "dangerous" for cruising off-shore. This is obviously ludicrous, but it's relentless. Hence the arguments.

I honestly think that this kind of hype is not only very misleading to people looking to get into cruising - I think it can actually be dangerous for new sailors. Many seem to think that simply buying an old "bluewater brand" somehow protects them offshore.

So - as long as the arguments on either side are reasonable, I think it's always a great conversation to have. I would never say that "bluewater brands suck!". I don't at all think that to be true. Now, no freakin' way would I ever buy that Island Packet above. I want some performance in my boat. But I'm certainly not going to say my boat is "superior" to someone who owns one. I'll just have a beer ready for them when they finally get into our anchorage. They will have earned it. Then, if my Hunter falls apart in a gale, they can tack over and pick me up to return the favor. It's all good.

At the end of the day, the age old "bluewater debate" is really just dead and needs to end.
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Old 06-11-2014, 13:17   #408
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I guess the answer you want to hear is that they can't compete with Groupe Beneteau?

That's partially true -- if someone can afford a Swan or a Contest, then that person can probably afford a bigger boat, and although we've debated "big vs small" I think few people would not gladly have a bigger boat if they could afford the boat, the berthing, the maintenance, etc. -- at least after trying out a bigger boat. So people buying boats under say 45' these days are 97% of them on a budget, and so will mostly not stop at reducing the size, they will find a more economical maker as well.
...
Why do we always have these arguments? (Although I have to say this has been one of the more civilized ones). Why can't people just be happy liking the boats they like? People have different taste and values in this, just like in so many other things in life, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why that bothers some people.
I don't think the argument here was about liking the boats we like but with some saying that mass production boats are crap and unfit to sail offshore.

I believe all agree that a much more expensive small production sailboat has a better finish. It has to have if not it goes bankrupt and even so as you have said, in what regards small to medium sizes life is difficult for the builders of more expensive boats.

Regarding the more expensive brands they have their life more difficult all the time since mass production builders are also entering on that more restricted market of Luxury boats. I have been inside the new Salona 60 and I can tell you that it does not looks like a Salona in what regards overall finish and that they are selling it considerable cheaper regarding other well known brands that sell this type of yachts.









Regarding owning a bigger boat if one could, what I see around here is people that had big boats buying smaller when they get older: The family is less numerous, the efforts in regarding sailing are smaller in a smaller boat and in general terms, life is simpler with less things to maintain and clean.
Really big yachts here are related with status and money. I would not have a sailboat that couldn't be sailed by me alone and that restricts size.

Regarding charter in Europe I wonder what you would felt if you had the chance to sail a really good sailboat. Unfortunately here in Europe charter boats are always mass production cruisers and it is difficult to find a specially outstanding sailing boat. There are two exceptions that may interest some: In Greece, for the more spartan and sportive there is a firm the charter Pogo cruisers. In Croatia the builder of Salona is the owner of a charter fleet and they have normally new boats. Try one of those and you fell the difference. There are lots of other fast and interesting cruising boats around...but not unfortunately on the charter market.
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Old 06-11-2014, 13:18   #409
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Re: Rudder Failures

Some of the boats that Pollux show us look fantastic -- fast, clean lines, all the things he lauds, they are all there. I do believe that they would be great performers at sea.

But, I simply can't imagine actually doing long distance, long term cruising in remote and undeveloped areas with keels like those. Perhaps in the Europe that he talks about there are many boatyards that can deal with getting such designs out of the water and arranged so that one can do normal maintenance or repairs, but in the island Pacific things are different. That is the area that I am familiar with, and I suspect that the same issues would emerge in many other cruising destinations.

This may not influence many buyers... but then few of us really do long term cruising, and most will have no difficulty finding places to do maintenance. It is just that after slipping my boat on a ramshackle railway a few times I really appreciate a keel that the boat sits happily upon without needing props fore and aft and wedges carefully stuck under the bulb by a diver etc.

I must admit that I'd love to have the windward performance afforded by such designs, and the great stability in surfing conditions that is attributed to them... it would be fantastic. But for our style of cruising, I just can't see the tradeoffs coming out in their favour. Besides, I can't afford one...

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 06-11-2014, 13:52   #410
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Some of the boats that Pollux show us look fantastic -- fast, clean lines, all the things he lauds, they are all there. I do believe that they would be great performers at sea.

But, I simply can't imagine actually doing long distance, long term cruising in remote and undeveloped areas with keels like those. Perhaps in the Europe that he talks about there are many boatyards that can deal with getting such designs out of the water and arranged so that one can do normal maintenance or repairs, but in the island Pacific things are different. That is the area that I am familiar with, and I suspect that the same issues would emerge in many other cruising destinations.

This may not influence many buyers... but then few of us really do long term cruising, and most will have no difficulty finding places to do maintenance. It is just that after slipping my boat on a ramshackle railway a few times I really appreciate a keel that the boat sits happily upon without needing props fore and aft and wedges carefully stuck under the bulb by a diver etc.

I must admit that I'd love to have the windward performance afforded by such designs, and the great stability in surfing conditions that is attributed to them... it would be fantastic. But for our style of cruising, I just can't see the tradeoffs coming out in their favour. Besides, I can't afford one...

Cheers,

Jim
As usual, Jim has summed up things pretty well in my opinion. Horses for courses applies here. I agree that I'd love to have the advantages the latest in hull design would give. But I can't afford it and I can't see dealing with the related complexities in the out of the way places I intend to go.
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Old 06-11-2014, 16:22   #411
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Why do I have the feeling some will defend cheap construction no matter what? (...)
Some time back, when I was a less careful user of our Forum, someone asked "can we have an open minded discussion of ferro cement boats?", to which I replied "not if you have one". Or something along this line.

It is 2014 now and I think we are more or less surrounded by cheap everything. Also cheap attitudes. Boats do not sink in our heads and when they sink in our marinas it is just a nuisance and an insurance problem. After all, these two places are where 99% of cruising boats are 99% of the time.

I, for one, am a great believer of cheap (meaning 'inexpensive' here). Off course only when safe and, preferably, strong, go before cheap.

In North America you have a saying that goes "cheap, fast and good: pick any two". Or something along this line.

Let's not assume all posters are North Americans though ;-)

Cheers,
b.
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Old 06-11-2014, 16:25   #412
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I think your entire post is very well reasoned.

As for this last part, the answer is really simple..."production boats" as a whole are pretty much continuously attacked in forums as not only being "sub-standard", but "dangerous" for cruising off-shore. This is obviously ludicrous, but it's relentless. Hence the arguments.

I honestly think that this kind of hype is not only very misleading to people looking to get into cruising - I think it can actually be dangerous for new sailors. Many seem to think that simply buying an old "bluewater brand" somehow protects them offshore.
I have looked at a few books and online resources lately. I could not find any well respected authors saying what you accuse them of. Specifically, they don't say you will die in a new production boat. They say that a new production boat will require some additional attention and $ to make it blue water ready.

Neither do they say any old "bluewater brand" will see you through anything. What they say is that if you are patient you can find an older well found boat that is not a project boat. And if you renew the safety items (rigging, sails, steering, etc.) and forego all the latest electronics you will be out cruising sooner and as safe as possible. Sooner because the up front cost is less than a new production boat and just as safe or safer because good older boats are actually built stronger than they need to be.

I don't see this as a condemnation of production boats. But it defies logic not to examine known issues with production boats that can and have caused steering loss. If you want to take one of these boats above 40 degrees or make more than 3 day passages you should make sure that these problems are not in your boat. You cannot depend on the manufacturer to do that for you.

If you cross the Atlantic west to east there is a much greater than 1% chance you will see a gale or two. This nonsense about 99% of sailing is all smooth weather may be right for one or two day passages where weather forecasts are accurate and schedules don't matter. But the technology does not exist to accurately predict the weather for an entire 2-3 week crossing. About all you can do is consult the pilot charts for that season, pick your weather window and head out. Once you are out there you have to take what the ocean gives you.

I highly recommend a new book by John Kretschmer Sailing a Serious Ocean. You probably won't like the recommendations he makes as to what boats are suitable. But he definitely does not say what you seem to have heard other places.
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Old 06-11-2014, 16:30   #413
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
I have looked at a few books and online resources lately. I could not find any well respected authors saying what you accuse them of. Specifically, they don't say you will die in a new production boat...

I highly recommend a new book by John Kretschmer Sailing a Serious Ocean. You probably won't like the recommendations he makes as to what boats are suitable. But he definitely does not say what you seem to have heard other places.
Sigh.

Read my post again. And, please, focus!

Here, I'll throw you a bone...

Quote:
...pretty much continuously attacked in forums...
The only thing you've got right is that well respected authors don't usually say ridiculous stuff like less respected forum posters tend to.

As for this part...

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Neither do they say any old "bluewater brand" will see you through anything. What they say is that if you are patient you can find an older well found boat that is not a project boat. And if you renew the safety items (rigging, sails, steering, etc.) and forego all the latest electronics you will be out cruising sooner and as safe as possible. Sooner because the up front cost is less than a new production boat and just as safe or safer because good older boats are actually built stronger than they need to be.
Good luck with that.

Then this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
If you want to take one of these boats above 40 degrees or make more than 3 day passages you should make sure that these problems are not in your boat. You cannot depend on the manufacturer to do that for you.
Who exactly is advocating production boats for high-latitude sailing? Are you actually reading this thread or just posting?

And finally,

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
If you cross the Atlantic west to east there is a much greater than 1% chance you will see a gale or two. This nonsense about 99% of sailing is all smooth weather may be right for one or two day passages where weather forecasts are accurate and schedules don't matter. But the technology does not exist to accurately predict the weather for an entire 2-3 week crossing. About all you can do is consult the pilot charts for that season, pick your weather window and head out. Once you are out there you have to take what the ocean gives you.
Of course you'll likely see a gale or two. So what? Plenty of production boats do these passages, gales and all, every single year.

Finally, who said that "99% of sailing is all smooth weather"? See? In your mind the only sailing production boats are good for is "all smooth weather". You can't seem to understand that they can, and do, handle bad weather...that your perception is wrong.

So, again, buy whatever boat you want. But at least try to keep the facts straight.
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Old 06-11-2014, 16:39   #414
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Some of the boats that Pollux show us look fantastic -- fast, clean lines, all the things he lauds, they are all there. I do believe that they would be great performers at sea.

But, I simply can't imagine actually doing long distance, long term cruising in remote and undeveloped areas with keels like those. Perhaps in the Europe that he talks about there are many boatyards that can deal with getting such designs out of the water and arranged so that one can do normal maintenance or repairs, but in the island Pacific things are different. That is the area that I am familiar with, and I suspect that the same issues would emerge in many other cruising destinations.

(...)
Jim,

I too know some areas of the Pacific (South) as well as some of the Indian. I have seen Bavarias and such likes cruising everywhere and anywhere.

Where it really matters (e.g. charter boats going round Cape Horn) you will see a much higher percentage of stronger designs.

So to say, the matter has been already addressed by natural selection.

Cruising today is way less about sailing, skills, knowledge and boat choice than it was before. And I think this trend will continue until cheap space flight becomes available to the masses.

Which is possibly bad news to anybody who still finds anything worth revisiting on this world's cruising routes. Pun intended.

Love,
barnakiel
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Old 06-11-2014, 17:00   #415
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Some of the boats that Pollux show us look fantastic -- fast, clean lines, all the things he lauds, they are all there. I do believe that they would be great performers at sea.

But, I simply can't imagine actually doing long distance, long term cruising in remote and undeveloped areas with keels like those. Perhaps in the Europe that he talks about there are many boatyards that can deal with getting such designs out of the water and arranged so that one can do normal maintenance or repairs, but in the island Pacific things are different. That is the area that I am familiar with, and I suspect that the same issues would emerge in many other cruising destinations.

This may not influence many buyers... but then few of us really do long term cruising, and most will have no difficulty finding places to do maintenance. It is just that after slipping my boat on a ramshackle railway a few times I really appreciate a keel that the boat sits happily upon without needing props fore and aft and wedges carefully stuck under the bulb by a diver etc.

I must admit that I'd love to have the windward performance afforded by such designs, and the great stability in surfing conditions that is attributed to them... it would be fantastic. But for our style of cruising, I just can't see the tradeoffs coming out in their favour. Besides, I can't afford one...

Cheers,

Jim
I agree with all that. The boats I post are not necessarily what I would like to have, neither I sail on the Pacific or remote areas. But in what regards long range cruising I would stick with that Aluminium Cigale. The boat was designed for it, a very strong boat.
I had exchanged impressions with owners and the boat is really all it was promised and more. They don't make many but the same basic model has been made with some modifications for many years and that in Europe where the boats change quickly says a lot about the soundness of the concept.
The first one was designed by Finot, the actual one is designed by Marc Lombard but the basic concept is the same. it is made by Alubat, the same shipyard that makes the OVNI. Sure, it can even be better, they have just to put a swing keel on it. I am sure it will happen someday.

Cheers

Paulo
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Old 06-11-2014, 17:21   #416
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
...

Neither do they say any old "bluewater brand" will see you through anything. What they say is that if you are patient you can find an older well found boat that is not a project boat. And if you renew the safety items (rigging, sails, steering, etc.) and forego all the latest electronics you will be out cruising sooner and as safe as possible. Sooner because the up front cost is less than a new production boat and just as safe or safer because good older boats are actually built stronger than they need to be.
...
Some years ago I read a crazy article of a rich gut that had bought and recovered an old HR model instead of buying a new one. He liked more the older boat and thought that a full recovery would not be as expensive as a new boat. Well, it was not....but close, I mean a difference of 200 000 euros on a 600 000 euros boat or something like that. If we consider the resale value of both boats, the new boat and the old recovered one it is easy to see that he lost a lot of money. Well, it was a rich guy anyway and he was very happy because his recovered boat was not as expensive as a new boat.

Of course the new model was a far better sailing boat in all aspects but he was in love by that old boat and love is not rational
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Old 06-11-2014, 17:21   #417
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Re: Rudder Failures

I wish more bashers would post where they cruise to as it sounds way too dangerous and I feel it is best to avoid.

back to rudders: I hope people realize that a proper designed rudder will fail before the support assembly does. It is much better to have the thing break off at the water line than for the whole assembly to rip out. On the much quoted recent bene rudder it was replaced with a different rudder. Is it possible that rudder was now stronger than the rest of the assembly (not counting the earlier collision, replacement in the water, and no real inspection afterwards)?
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Old 06-11-2014, 18:02   #418
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I
Regarding owning a bigger boat if one could, what I see around here is people that had big boats buying smaller when they get older: The family is less numerous, the efforts in regarding sailing are smaller in a smaller boat and in general terms, life is simpler with less things to maintain and clean.
Really big yachts here are related with status and money. I would not have a sailboat that couldn't be sailed by me alone and that restricts size.
This is a different conversation, but I've never see an older person who once had a bigger boat trade it in on a smaller one, unless it was for money.

I single hand my 54-er (on deck; about 60' LOA) all the time, including docking in strong wind, something I was doing just this last weekend.

If there's anything I don't like about my boat, it's that it might be a little small. I think about 65' is about the right size for a cruising sailboat; especially if the beam is a little narrower than standard, and more like mine (16').

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Regarding charter in Europe I wonder what you would felt if you had the chance to sail a really good sailboat. Unfortunately here in Europe charter boats are always mass production cruisers and it is difficult to find a specially outstanding sailing boat. There are two exceptions that may interest some: In Greece, for the more spartan and sportive there is a firm the charter Pogo cruisers. In Croatia the builder of Salona is the owner of a charter fleet and they have normally new boats. Try one of those and you fell the difference. There are lots of other fast and interesting cruising boats around...but not unfortunately on the charter market.
I don't know whether the "you" here is directed at me, but I actually have a thousand miles or more in Salona 45's. Great boat! But not superior to the Benes I've sailed in any striking way.

And all of them much less performance than the boat I have now -- which is largely a function simply of waterline length.
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Old 06-11-2014, 18:33   #419
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Re: Rudder Failures

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back to rudders: I hope people realize that a proper designed rudder will fail before the support assembly does. It is much better to have the thing break off at the water line than for the whole assembly to rip out. On the much quoted recent bene rudder it was replaced with a different rudder. Is it possible that rudder was now stronger than the rest of the assembly (not counting the earlier collision, replacement in the water, and no real inspection afterwards)?
One thing that Blue Pearl video convinced me of is to do a serious inspection of the entire keel and rudder areas if I ground hard. My guess is they just missed the more widespread damage from that rock strike that caused the rudder post damage in the first place.

And I still don't understand "strengthening the keel with epoxy". Oh well.
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Old 06-11-2014, 18:46   #420
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

(...)

I honestly think that this kind of hype is not only very misleading to people looking to get into cruising - I think it can actually be dangerous for new sailors. Many seem to think that simply buying an old "bluewater brand" somehow protects them offshore.

(...)
But is it not feasible that since most (if not all) of that mass (production boat) hysteria is spread thru some cruising forums, (which are hardly ever respected by people looking to get into cruising), that this kind of hype will actually have next to nil influence on which boats they buy and why?

And is it not feasible that since they found a forum on the world wide web, they will also find other, alternative, sources of information? And use whatever fits THEIR vision of which boat they want to buy.

And is it not feasible that new sailors should start at the beginning and, if they do, then they will have heaps of experience before they buy an offshore capable boat and take it offshore?

Asoasf.

I think we are overdoing it here. It is a fine thread and fun to read but that's just that. Buyers buy impulsively. Try to guess what they perceive "the best" is when they ask you what to buy. Then answer accordingly. You will make many friends this way.

Cheers,
b.
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