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Old 05-11-2014, 18:22   #346
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Back on topic, I looked through the Blue Pearl thread and the news reports, etc.

If anyone is actually blaming that sinking on Plexus, after the groundings...the resulting rudder issues...the questionable quality of the repair work...the lack of a survey at purchase...etc. they're delusional. I think you'd be much, much more on point blaming the repair guys than Beneteau for that sinking.

Even NeilP seemed to agree on this point.
The boat was surveyed at purchase (post 40):

The Blue Pearl Sinking
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Old 05-11-2014, 18:26   #347
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
smack and polux- you two are the stalwarts defending the marketing hype of the new production boats.
If quality is so high on these boats, why the iron keels? Why the plexus tabbed bulkheads? Why the thin resin rich laminate that Minaret has found time and again? Why the cheap ikea-esque furniture?
Again, I agree- they have found their niche, and their design brief is perfect- coastal cruising. That's what most (including me now) do with their boats. But why try to pretend they are better than they are?
...
I don't understand what you mean. You have a production boat of a brand that went down because the boats had too much problems and the factory did not stand for the warranty on the new boats. Quite the contrary of Beneteau that has a strong image due to a relative lack of problems and the quality of its boats. That's why it is the n1 in sales. And it is not a question of prices since Bavaria are cheaper and other have similar prices.

There are many production boats with lead keel or the option for one.

Do you know that a modern led keel is more effective than an old designed lead fin keel? With the design of a torpedo keel the lead just makes the torpedo a bit thinner giving a marginal less drag and not a big difference in weight. That is justifiable only in performance boats where all 0.1K count as well as each kg but on a budget boat there are better ways to spend the money. Well treated with epoxy a steel keel will have no corrosion problems.

Regarding the furniture and finish it is on the mass production boats differ more from other production boats less budget limited. Having a better quality interior adds nothing to the boat solidity, seaworthiness or stability and regarding that they are not substantially different than other boats on the market so why do you think they are only fit for coastal work?

Here you have a surprising comparative regarding stability between what you and others call a bluewater boat, an Halberg Rassy and one mass production boat that you see only fit for coastal work. You may find it interesting since the results are surprising
Interesting Sailboats: STABILITY 1: MISLEADING BOATS - Hanse 345 / HR 342

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Old 05-11-2014, 18:34   #348
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Back on topic, I looked through the Blue Pearl thread and the news reports, etc.

If anyone is actually blaming that sinking on Plexus, after the groundings...the resulting rudder issues...the questionable quality of the repair work...the lack of a survey at purchase...etc. they're delusional. I think you'd be much, much more on point blaming the repair guys than Beneteau for that sinking.

Even NeilP seemed to agree on this point.
Nop! i dont, the rudder fail first in a collision , the rudder post need to be strong enough to take the worst in case of a collision or grounding , with just plexus right there what you have is cracks around the whole thing and when a portion of the plexus goo the rest fail very fast, you can see in the pictures , the fillets are shallow, the bottom of the ply is dry and just ply alone like a vital structural part is just lame, look again at the picture , this time without glasses, pls, both sides of the rudder post structure are just screwed with pan head screws , believe it!! pan head screws , no plexus there, the top is troughbolted to the aft master bulkhead with 5 screws, i see better salon tables in ikea mate... this is just one fine example in how a well know builder save cost in the production, like the washers in the cleat, any cruiser, designer, sailor, can tell you the same about the washers , heck i dont know why im saying this to you, you are a big boy right, try to explain why instead of a proper backing plate there is cheap washers?? Mann!!!!
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Old 05-11-2014, 18:48   #349
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Re: Rudder Failures

Not one manufacturer builds their boats to fail. My next boat may even be a Hun Bav Ben Jen or Duf. At the end of the day they are tried and true boats that are crossing oceans, some come to grief but most don't. I will put more faith in the experts who design and build these production boats than folks on here. Common sense says if one in 1000 will have an issue then the market leader will have the most issues. Statistics are what you make of them.

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Old 05-11-2014, 19:18   #350
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Re: Rudder Failures

+1 Simon.

Now mal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
smack and polux- you two are the stalwarts defending the marketing hype of the new production boats.
If quality is so high on these boats, why the iron keels? Why the plexus tabbed bulkheads? Why the thin resin rich laminate that Minaret has found time and again? Why the cheap ikea-esque furniture?
Again, I agree- they have found their niche, and their design brief is perfect- coastal cruising. That's what most (including me now) do with their boats. But why try to pretend they are better than they are?
I can't speak for Polux - but if that's what you think I'm saying, you are seriously misreading my posts. I'm not saying they are "better" than anything and I'm not even claiming that the "quality is so high".

I'm simply saying that they are FAR, FAR better and more reliable than the flimsy-deathtraps-that-shouldn't-leave-sight-of-land the "bluewaterers" always try to make them out to be. They are wrong.

Production Boats are PERFECTLY FINE for cruising AND EVEN crossing oceans if you don't go blindly sailing into survival storms. And the newer they are, the better overall value you get for less money. Period. That's it. You don't have to read any more into it than that. Is that so hard?
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Old 05-11-2014, 19:19   #351
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Nop! i dont, the rudder fail first in a collision , the rudder post need to be strong enough to take the worst in case of a collision or grounding , with just plexus right there what you have is cracks around the whole thing and when a portion of the plexus goo the rest fail very fast, you can see in the pictures , the fillets are shallow, the bottom of the ply is dry and just ply alone like a vital structural part is just lame, look again at the picture , this time without glasses, pls, both sides of the rudder post structure are just screwed with pan head screws , believe it!! pan head screws , no plexus there, the top is troughbolted to the aft master bulkhead with 5 screws, i see better salon tables in ikea mate... this is just one fine example in how a well know builder save cost in the production, like the washers in the cleat, any cruiser, designer, sailor, can tell you the same about the washers , heck i dont know why im saying this to you, you are a big boy right, try to explain why instead of a proper backing plate there is cheap washers?? Mann!!!!
Oops, my bad...it was Minaret (from that Blue Pearl thread):

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Definitely. We already know this boat grounded hard enough to damage the rudder shaft enough for it to eventually fall off. The same collision could possibly have damaged the bulkhead tabbing. The rudder damage was not discovered or ignored, the same could be true of possible bulkhead damage.
And like you guys said, we should listen to him. He knows.
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Old 05-11-2014, 19:23   #352
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpa View Post
The boat was surveyed at purchase (post 40):

The Blue Pearl Sinking
cpa - thanks for the heads-up. I'll do some more digging.

I now see that there were two very similarly titled threads. This one is much better since the owners were in it and provided videos.
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Old 05-11-2014, 20:37   #353
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I don't understand what you mean. You have a production boat of a brand that went down because the boats had too much problems and the factory did not stand for the warranty on the new boats. Quite the contrary of Beneteau that has a strong image due to a relative lack of problems and the quality of its boats. That's why it is the n1 in sales. And it is not a question of prices since Bavaria are cheaper and other have similar prices.


.
Tartan had a blip, but overall they have produced a pretty well designed and built series of boats. My T40 is certainly one of those in my opinion, though I only have 5 months of it after upsizing this summer.

I have chartered Beneteaus. Perfectly fine boats. I'd sail them in blue water. The 46 we chartered several years ago wandered all over the place upwind in gusty tradewinds due to wide transom. Best of all, the rudder would aerate and stall out whenever we heeled above 20-25 degrees in gusts. This was in only 20 knots. And there were already loose locker lids, etc. Not a bad boat, but I had 10 days to poke around (I am a gearhead and have been around boats my whole life). Not bad, but a lot of little corners cut. Ironically the 393 we chartered 2 yrs prior was better mannered. No wonder Mark likes his.

My Tartan, while not perfect (none are) is in another class of build quality, and this matters to me. Looking at details of chainplate supports, bulkhead tabbing, keel bolt placement, joinerwork, rudder post reinforcement, among others- really no comparison. Sure, biased, but I also chose it over a bunch of other boats at similar prices, many newer more mass production-esque. Read up on the pedigree of the S&S design, and it's construction quality and bluewater manners and design. To me it also tracks and handles much better upwind due to more moderate beam and transom width.

Bob Perry has some opinions on transoms, just to produce a counterpoint to your earlier post which makes it sounds as if broad transoms make cruisers better sailing boats.
According to Perry;" Transoms;"
" Light , beamy racing boats with shallow hulls can get away with wide sterns because when they heel, they present narrow heeled waterlines to the waves... these boats have huge rigs and horsepower to drive their hulls despite drag"
" The family cruisers mass produced..... such as Hunter and Beneteau employ a wide stern for interior volume. Some might argue they are fast because they resemble racing boat sterns, but it doesn't work that way...you do not want the corner of a cruisers transom dragging when it heels because that produces drag"
" Making a cruiser fat aft can also create helm balance problems" ( weather helm) However, "boat buyers love volume"

Another Perry review:
Sometimes when you get a boat with too much beam aft the waterlines go quite asymmetrical when the boat heels over giving it a multiple personality, i.e., its balanced and well-behaved when sailed upright, but a real unbalanced bear when its heeled.

In any case, we're both (hopefully you own a boat? what kind?) blessed enough to be out on the water sailing- which makes our opinions much more similar than different. Every boat mentioned in this thread will be perfectly fine for 99% of folks 99% of time. all beat the heck out of sitting in front of a laptop in the offseason....
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Old 05-11-2014, 21:11   #354
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Re: Rudder Failures

Okay - so, we know the boat had a seriously hard whack:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
I must stress that the rudder had been worked on before this happened after it clipped a rock. No other damage though. I am wondering whether there wasn't a hairline fracture that they didn't pick up and over the last two months it progressively deteriorated to a point it just snapped off.
And we know the surveyor (like most) didn't do an in-depth structural survey when they bought the boat:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
Also, in the back of my mind, I would like to know why the surveyor never saw the degradation on the rudder post as this was the part sticking out of the hull where it snapped. I guess they have the devil's protection and that would be a time waster to pursue, especially here in Martinique. Oh well, at least we will have a perfectly new and sturdy rudder assembly and good to cross oceans (hope I haven't jinxed that).
And it appears that the rudder was replaced while still in the water...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
Thanks Ann, have now also just arranged for the diver to come and fit the rudder tomorrow midday.
...which means there was likely no real inspection of the rest of the system and surrounding structure. Then they are off cruising again, and heading toward "reinforcing the keel" in Florida...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812 View Post
Hi folks, a big apology for taking so long to update. We have been cruising and sailing for the last few months. We have not had any internet reliably or for any length of time and I have not been on CF. We got the rudder sorted, sailed off as soon as we could and thankfully she has performed exactly as we would expect her to perform.
So, I'll keep looking - but thus far I'm not seeing a case for a "perfectly good" Bene 50 "falling apart" due to "poor design/construction" (including the evil Plexus).

It hit a freakin' rock!
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Old 05-11-2014, 21:22   #355
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
Tartan had a blip, but overall they have produced a pretty well designed and built series of boats. My T40 is certainly one of those in my opinion, though I only have 5 months of it after upsizing this summer.

I have chartered Beneteaus. Perfectly fine boats. I'd sail them in blue water. The 46 we chartered several years ago wandered all over the place upwind in gusty tradewinds due to wide transom. Best of all, the rudder would aerate and stall out whenever we heeled above 20-25 degrees in gusts. This was in only 20 knots. And there were already loose locker lids, etc. Not a bad boat, but I had 10 days to poke around (I am a gearhead and have been around boats my whole life). Not bad, but a lot of little corners cut. Ironically the 393 we chartered 2 yrs prior was better mannered. No wonder Mark likes his.

My Tartan, while not perfect (none are) is in another class of build quality, and this matters to me. Looking at details of chainplate supports, bulkhead tabbing, keel bolt placement, joinerwork, rudder post reinforcement, among others- really no comparison. Sure, biased, but I also chose it over a bunch of other boats at similar prices, many newer more mass production-esque. Read up on the pedigree of the S&S design, and it's construction quality and bluewater manners and design. To me it also tracks and handles much better upwind due to more moderate beam and transom width.

Bob Perry has some opinions on transoms, just to produce a counterpoint to your earlier post which makes it sounds as if broad transoms make cruisers better sailing boats.
According to Perry;" Transoms;"
" Light , beamy racing boats with shallow hulls can get away with wide sterns because when they heel, they present narrow heeled waterlines to the waves... these boats have huge rigs and horsepower to drive their hulls despite drag"
" The family cruisers mass produced..... such as Hunter and Beneteau employ a wide stern for interior volume. Some might argue they are fast because they resemble racing boat sterns, but it doesn't work that way...you do not want the corner of a cruisers transom dragging when it heels because that produces drag"
" Making a cruiser fat aft can also create helm balance problems" ( weather helm) However, "boat buyers love volume"

Another Perry review:
Sometimes when you get a boat with too much beam aft the waterlines go quite asymmetrical when the boat heels over giving it a multiple personality, i.e., it’s balanced and well-behaved when sailed upright, but a real unbalanced bear when it’s heeled.

In any case, we're both (hopefully you own a boat? what kind?) blessed enough to be out on the water sailing- which makes our opinions much more similar than different. Every boat mentioned in this thread will be perfectly fine for 99% of folks 99% of time. all beat the heck out of sitting in front of a laptop in the offseason....
Mal - I regret to inform you that your Tartan, if at all performance oriented like this newer model, is "built very crappily" is "not suited to bluewater" and "will probably sink in a mild gale":

Tartan 115 Performance Features | Tartan Yachts

Quote:
Interiors That Make A Difference
The 115 interior belies her raceboat capabilities. Using lightweight composite laminates, cabinetry is abundant and attractively finished in varnished cherry with laminated, curved trim. Bulkheads are attached to the interior components using Plexus methylmethacrylate adhesives providing additional stiffness to the hull structure without adding weight.
And a nice quote to reinforce their "new and better building techniques":

Quote:
"Others try to match what we're doing at Tartan/C&C Yachts, but without the advanced building technology we've designed and employ, they simply do not have the tools required."
...along with JBoats, Alerions, and some of the "The World's Toughest Boats":

Quote:
Formula uses Plexus adhesive. “It’s like welding the parts together,” says Laux, who describes a test process in which glued parts are placed in a hydraulic press in order to find the failure point. “We found that the glue had better adhesion than the resin and glass.”
So I think we can put this "proper glassing is better than Plexus" argument to bed now. It's completely without merit. Either that or the entire industry is just not as smart as a couple of disgruntled posters here on CF.

What next?
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Old 05-11-2014, 21:53   #356
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Re: Rudder Failures

Well same kind of boat Oceanis series with diferent folks, same rudder ikea post config but this time !! Surprise!! they forgot to shoot the plexus at the Factory!! nothing around the bearing collar, air, zero, nothing!! no plexus.. Glad this guys cacht this isue in time,,,,


This link is about a First 40,7 who sank thx to a snaped rudder post..
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...78677474,d.aWw
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Old 05-11-2014, 22:34   #357
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Re: Rudder Failures

Smack,
I may disagree with some of your thoughts and ideas but you did develop a succesful thread with 350 replies, so good on you for that.

Polux,
You are a great defender of the European production boat builders, while there are a lot of holes in some of your logic you do work hard at it.
By the way boys that old Swan will probably outpoint the bulk of the new cruisers, has a lot better ride offshore and it won't be until the wind gets behind the beam that it will have trouble keeping up. Look at how well it has retained its value(considering all sailboats are lousy financial investments) can you, using your best imagination believe that a 40 year old Beneteau or Hunter could ever sell for a price like that. (There is one exception, Benni's Firsts built in the mid 80's 38,40.5,42,456) Now if you substituted an older Hylas or Passport or Amal or Baltic or ....the list is a long one is the reason many choose to go this route.
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Old 06-11-2014, 04:42   #358
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Mal - I regret to inform you that your Tartan, if at all performance oriented like this newer model, is "built very crappily" is "not suited to bluewater" and "will probably sink in a mild gale":

Tartan 115 Performance Features | Tartan Yachts



And a nice quote to reinforce their "new and better building techniques":



...along with JBoats, Alerions, and some of the "The World's Toughest Boats":



So I think we can put this "proper glassing is better than Plexus" argument to bed now. It's completely without merit. Either that or the entire industry is just not as smart as a couple of disgruntled posters here on CF.

What next?
Smack-
Assuming that all boats from a builder are the same is the same as buying all the promotional materials hook line and sinker.
See, I take each boat individually. I considered beneteau firsts. Even poked at a Cherubini hunter 37. Looked at a Catalina. Make my own independent opinions.
No, mine was built back when it was the flagship of their cruising line in the 80s. They had started using vinyl ester but hasn't cut corners. Don't like their newer models as much. Go ahead and spout your propaganda and be a "brand cheerleader"
By the way never considered a hunter so don't know much about their build. To each their own but I can't get over their looks- and there's plenty of boats out there so choosing one that is more graceful is pretty easy. Yes superficial but if one can't enjoy their boat's looks....


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Old 06-11-2014, 04:50   #359
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Re: Rudder Failures

Looked up the tartan 115- a lightweight inshore race machine. Apples and oranges.


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Old 06-11-2014, 05:14   #360
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Well same kind of boat Oceanis series with diferent folks, same rudder ikea post config but this time !! Surprise!! they forgot to shoot the plexus at the Factory!! nothing around the bearing collar, air, zero, nothing!! no plexus.. Glad this guys cacht this isue in time,,,,
[/URL]
It is always difficult to see your points in your photos because they are usually poor, close in shots. That isn't a dig at you personally - I understand you are head-down in a small, tight compartment with a camera phone trying to take a picture of something that is almost hidden.

However, in these pictures, it looks like the rudder tube is well-glassed through a longitudinal bulkhead underneath the horizontal plywood. In fact, I don't understand the purpose of the horizontal plywood at all because it looks like it sits on top of a fiberglass bulkhead. Then there is the picture that clearly shows the plywood tabbed with fiberglass and not plexus.

To me, it doesn't look like anyone forgot any plexus around the rudder tube - it looks like adhesive of any type isn't necessary at all there.

But again, it is difficult to understand what is going on in many of these pictures. Perhaps the next bene that you get will have had its deck fall off and you can get better lighting and more perspective on your shots?

Mark
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