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Old 04-11-2014, 16:30   #286
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post

A small rule bilge pump like the 1100 GPH is apropiate for a 35 to 40 ft boat , longer than that my personal experience call for a 1500 2000 gph pump, dont tell me Enginers make the right calculations because the right calculations fail under the deck cleat . There is a chart selection guide about bilge pumps v boat size,, Hell my boat is 44 LOA and the
old 1500 quite small for me so i swicht to a 2000 gph rule, quite a good diference..
Why in the world would a smaller boat allow you to use a smaller bilge pump?! Are the through-hulls different in size? A small boat with a broken hose from a 1 1/2" through hull will sink a lot faster than a large boat with the same broken hose from the same through hull. I guess I would want, on the contrary, larger bilge pumps on smaller boats.

I have dual 3500 GPH Rules on my boat, plus two 1350 GPH Whale Supersubs one each in the main bilge and the engine room bilge, plus a big Edson manual pump, plus a bucket and a scared sailor or two . . . .
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Old 04-11-2014, 16:30   #287
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Re: Rudder Failures

How you know the number of beneteaus doing TW?
How you know the number percentage% of incidents?
How you know there is 15000 beneteaus sailing out there?
How you really know or dont know how many are out there resting in a boatyard waiting for repairs without mention nothing in the net
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Old 04-11-2014, 16:30   #288
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
For one thing, there isn't the oversight for boat manufacturers (pleasure boats) that we have in the auto industry. ...
It seems you never heard about the RCD and the continuous actualization based on technical reports made by specialists (NAs and Naval Engineers). Those rules are mandatory and regulate the market.

I now that you don't have that on the US but many US boats follow them because if the boat is not certified they cannot sell it in Europe and anyway the vast majority of sailboats is made and designed in Europe.
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Old 04-11-2014, 16:38   #289
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Re: Rudder Failures

[QUOTE=neilpride;1670123...
...
To me new stuff is something like a CF hull with Airex sándwich bulkheads, or a metal grid to spread the loads in Xyacht, but even that is probe it years agoo..

The previous poster is very right when he claim that low entry production boats are made like before but with less materials compared with vintage boats , the gain?? light boats... the cons?? weaker boats... fact!!!!![/QUOTE]

Hum, it seems you are not actualized: For years the Xyacht keel structure is not made of steel but carbon and the Fiber carbon bulkheads have not airex (that is what my boat has as core) but a Nomex honeycomb.

Light boats that are as strong or more than older boats due to new materials and new building techniques, that seems you don't know very well, if not you would know Robert is wrong.
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Old 04-11-2014, 16:49   #290
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Re: Rudder Failures

If one of the Bene's you're talking about is Cheeki Rafiki - I'm very familiar with that one. And I agree - that's a scary one. As for the other examples, yes, I'd love for you to point me to them - with photos if possible. Please do. I think it would be very helpful.

As for a few of your other points...

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
A small rule bilge pump like the 1100 GPH is apropiate for a 35 to 40 ft boat , longer than that my personal experience call for a 1500 2000 gph pump...There is a chart selection guide about bilge pumps v boat size,, Hell my boat is 44 LOA and the old 1500 quite small for me so i swicht to a 2000 gph rule, quite a good diference..
What chart are you referring to - one from Rule itself? In any case, how does the length of the boat directly affect the amount of water needing to be pumped out? Isn't that more a matter of bilge/sump design and the water-tight integrity of the boat more than the length?

Using a general chart is very different from running specific calculations for a specific use...and this is exactly what I was talking about earlier about specialization/generalizatin and what they're each worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
...dont tell me Enginers make the right calculations because the right calculations fail under the deck cleat ...
The calculations fail for what? In other words what use case are you judging that deck cleat and its washers by? Simply keeping the boat tied up within a slip or along a dock or bulkhead or at anchor? Or towing a drogue in an F10 storm?

Calculations have to be driven by a use case. If the standard cleats are failing in their normal usage at the dock or in the slip or at anchor, you've got a point. If they are failing when towing a drogue in an F10 storm (i.e. - they weren't reinforced for that specific use)...that's a different issue isn't it?

Look, I don't mean to be picking on you NP - but I do think we all have to be very clear exactly what facts are behind the judgements that are being made. Because otherwise it's just blather.
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Old 04-11-2014, 16:49   #291
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Hum, it seems you are not actualized: For years the Xyacht keel structure is not made of steel but carbon and the Fiber carbon bulkheads have not airex (that is what my boat has as core) but a Nomex honeycomb.

Light boats that are as strong or more than older boats due to new materials and new building techniques, that seems you don't know very well, if not you would know Robert is wrong.

What im missing Pólux?ISSUU - Xc 35 Brochure by X-Yachts A/S keel Steel frame.

ISSUU - Xc 38 Brochure by X-Yachts A/S Keel rigging frame in Steel..

Steel Pólux, or why the heck they are still advertising the Steel frames in their brochures???
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Old 04-11-2014, 16:52   #292
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Re: Rudder Failures

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I don't think much real engineering goes into any sailboat, whether they be "production boats", or high end so-called hand made ones.

Just because you own a FE analysis software package which allows you run a few calculations doesn't mean that you've done a proper engineering job. To really engineer something as complex as a cruising sailboat -- that is, to really engineer it the way cars are engineered -- would cost many millions of dollars and will require some destructive testing -- and it just ain't happening, whether we're talking about Swans, or we're talking about Bavarias.

Theoretically, "production boats" should be much better engineered than other boats -- because with volume they have some chance of amortizing the costs. But I don't actually think the production methods are so different between them -- the massiest mass production sailboat is still quaint arts & crafts -- practically basket weaving -- compared to the way cars are made.

I think most of the "engineering" which goes on is basically, how much are we willing to overbuild this. And the maker of an expensive, prestigious, low production boat will simply supersize everything to create big margins of error -- because the prestige of his marque enables him to charge enough to cover the costs. Something which Bav and Bennie can't do.

That doesn't mean that Bav and Bennie are necessarily carp. Groupe Beneteau's products, in particular, are clearly the result of a fair amount of intelligent thought, even if most of this does not rise to the level of actual engineering. But there will be less of the overbuilding which passes for "engineering" in our field, so more maintenance and more inspection is an excellent idea.

A case in point might be Oyster, who until recently insisted on full skeg rudders despite the huge performance hit from that antiquated design. That's a substitute for actual engineering, which, I submit, is not much done with sailboats, at least those which are not being made for America's Cup.
A lot of engineering goes on sailboats these days to the point were a sailboat is not only designed by a NA. Mass production boats and also performance boats and racers are designed by a team composed by a Naval architect, one or various engineers (for the structure and composite materials) a specialist in computational fluid dynamics and VPP and also an interior designer. The NA only coordinates the team and directs the design. Each boat has a project manager.

Yes, boat design this days is very different from 40 years ago where a NA made some drawings and most of the time was the builder that using past experience took care of the structure...as it seems fit to him. I know that some boats are still built that way in the US but not American mass production boats (or I hope not).
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Old 04-11-2014, 16:56   #293
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That doesn't mean that Bav and Bennie are necessarily carp.
Best quote of the thread.

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Old 04-11-2014, 16:57   #294
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
If one of the Bene's you're talking about is Cheeki Rafiki - I'm very familiar with that one. And I agree - that's a scary one. As for the other examples, yes, I'd love for you to point me to them - with photos if possible. Please do. I think it would be very helpful.

As for a few of your other points...



What chart are you referring to - one from Rule itself? In any case, how does the length of the boat directly affect the amount of water needing to be pumped out? Isn't that more a matter of bilge/sump design and the water-tight integrity of the boat more than the length?

Using a general chart is very different from running specific calculations for a specific use.



The calculations fail for what? In other words what use case are you judging that deck cleat by? Simply keeping the boat tied up within a slip or along a dock or bulkhead or at anchor? Or towing a drogue in an F10 storm?

Calculations have to be driven by a use case. If the standard cleats are failing in their normal usage at the dock or in the slip or at anchor, you've got a point. If they are failing when towing a drogue in an F10 storm (i.e. - they weren't reinforced for that specific use)...that's a different issue isn't it?

Look, I don't mean to be picking on you NP - but I do think we all have to be very clear exactly what facts are behind the judgements that are being made. Because otherwise it's just blather.

My nipples are Bronze, hehe, i think im going to take a break from this topic, stay well!!!!
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Old 04-11-2014, 17:04   #295
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
What im missing Pólux?ISSUU - Xc 35 Brochure by X-Yachts A/S keel Steel frame.

ISSUU - Xc 38 Brochure by X-Yachts A/S Keel rigging frame in Steel..

Steel Pólux, or why the heck they are still advertising the Steel frames in their brochures???
What you are missing is that boat design and new materials are updated fast (it is not needed 40 years): Those are models with some years already and have still a keel structure. New models have a carbon structure:

"The X-Yachts steel keel frame has been updated with a new carbon/composite structure which gives an improved strength to weight ratio for hull impact resilience and rig stability with a lighter overall weight." 2014 Xyachts
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Old 04-11-2014, 17:08   #296
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Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
How you know the number of beneteaus doing TW?
How you know the number percentage% of incidents?
How you know there is 15000 beneteaus sailing out there?
How you really know or dont know how many are out there resting in a boatyard waiting for repairs without mention nothing in the net
Do you think that deserves an answer? Beneteau makes over 2000 boats a year.
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Old 04-11-2014, 17:17   #297
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Re: Rudder Failures

We lost our spade rudder on a mid 70s Heritage One ton on Lake Erie. 7 years of hard campaigning many races & a 3rd place boat of the year. It failed in fatigue where the stock exited the hull right at the base of the bearing. 5-inch diameter SS stock; 6-foot long blade. No AP; tiller steer. Big lumpy stuff on a close reach & about 8-10 knots at the time. There was a loud bang followed by the blade briefly visible on the surface. We all watched as it disappeared into the ink. CG out of Loraine, Oh towed us in. We were two miles ahead of the fleet (racing) - nobody offered assistance or even inquired into our troubles.

Our current rudder is 6 feet X 30 inches X 5 dia at the stock & skeg mounted. I personally re-built the mushy water soaked original with syntactic epoxy foam interior & carbon fiber skin. You can see the photos here Member Galleries - Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery

I find my AP will not steer unless the boat is well trimmed. We set up and play until the helm is easy to the touch. We can tell when conditions increase weather helm as the wheel centering mark shifts to windward. The AP is a massive servo-motor on roller chain wrapped around a duplicate sector on the top of the stock. It has lots of guts but that huge rudder is lots of torque. When we hand steer in a good groove, we take a wind hit or wave well timed and wait for the load to ebb before making corrections. If you can steer ahead of a hit, this is easier. With 35 tons of boat, we cannot manhandle the vessel.
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Old 04-11-2014, 17:25   #298
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Re: Rudder Failures

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The concept, Smack, that new boats have new technology in their construction is both right and wrong. As I said earlier, some do and some don't. The more upscale boats sometimes do and the cheap seats seldom if ever. Its the same polyester glass from 5o years ago except there is a lot less of it and instead of high labor fitting and tabbing the bulkheads they now use a thin liner glued in place with Plexus(hold it I guess I found something that qualifies as high tech), the interiors are fake Ikea type prefab cabinetry and floors that are cut out with a computer(hold it another high tech technique as it was done by hand before) They put their brass through hulls in and their fender washers under the cleats and other than engine designs from the 1960's and deck hardware, wires etc. the construction today is the same material as used for 50 years but done cheaper. Parts that should be properly glassed in place are now held with Plexus and for most of the users it does the trick but it hardly represents any improvements other than the bottom line for the builder.
As to whether yachts today are faster, well there is no discussion here because by and large they are and not only that but they are much bigger to boot and the interior spaces are used much better for most owners. So on the design side I agree with Polux and yourself, boats are much better in that dept. There are some beautifully made boats today and a great choice to boot but they are not the cheap seats. The cheap seats are built down to a price and their build quality reflects it BUT these are often wonderful value for the money paid and as long as you really know you are buying this type of product then no problem, just don't try to sell yourself that you can pay less and somehow get decent quality. This concept never has worked.... in any industry.
I think you are plain wrong. Yes it is polyester glass (that's a generic name) but not the same as 50 years ago, Resins are of a lot better quality and the fiber too. 50 years ago it was used A glass today everybody uses Eglass. Regarding using less resin, if that technique is well controlled and done (as it is on mass production boats) if the quantity is the right one to impregnate all the fiber but not more, the fiberglass is more strong, less brittle and less heavy. Big advances were made in what regard that and some mass production boats use an infusion process to obtain better results.

Regarding boat resistance and less flexing the use of cored hulls and decks is today the norm and the materials used for the core have been in constant evolution but most of all computational analysis of the stress efforts in the difference parts of the boat (on the design stage) lead to a better use of the materials, making boats stronger where they need to be strong and lighter where they don't need to be that strong.
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Old 04-11-2014, 17:39   #299
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Re: Rudder Failures

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
We lost our spade rudder on a mid 70s Heritage One ton on Lake Erie. 7 years of hard campaigning many races & a 3rd place boat of the year. It failed in fatigue where the stock exited the hull right at the base of the bearing. 5-inch diameter SS stock; 6-foot long blade. No AP; tiller steer. Big lumpy stuff on a close reach & about 8-10 knots at the time. There was a loud bang followed by the blade briefly visible on the surface. We all watched as it disappeared into the ink. CG out of Loraine, Oh towed us in. We were two miles ahead of the fleet (racing) - nobody offered assistance or even inquired into our troubles.

Our current rudder is 6 feet X 30 inches X 5 dia at the stock & skeg mounted. I personally re-built the mushy water soaked original with syntactic epoxy foam interior & carbon fiber skin. You can see the photos here Member Galleries - Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery

I find my AP will not steer unless the boat is well trimmed. We set up and play until the helm is easy to the touch. We can tell when conditions increase weather helm as the wheel centering mark shifts to windward. The AP is a massive servo-motor on roller chain wrapped around a duplicate sector on the top of the stock. It has lots of guts but that huge rudder is lots of torque. When we hand steer in a good groove, we take a wind hit or wave well timed and wait for the load to ebb before making corrections. If you can steer ahead of a hit, this is easier. With 35 tons of boat, we cannot manhandle the vessel.
Great feedback. Thanks nich.
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Old 04-11-2014, 17:53   #300
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Re: Rudder Failures

I guess I don't understand how you can use something like Plexus for bonding bulkheads etc?
Bulkheads should NOT be in contact with the hull... when they are tabbed properly they should have foam or air space between the bulkhead and the hull and only the tabbing contacts the hull. If they don't they eventually show thru the outer hull as hard spots. If you walk around a marina those boats aren't hard to see... you see vertical ridges on the outside of the shiny hull.
So if you bond with Plexus, it becomes quite hard right? How would you do it "properly"?
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