Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-11-2014, 19:52   #211
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,765
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Polox, I can tell you that not all rudder failures have been well documented on the internet. Only high profile and SAR incidents get posted and not even all of those. Unfortunately there is no central registry where accidents and things like rudder failures are kept track of. I tried to keep track of the abandoned and sinking boats. This year I had 11 of which I believe 9 to be loss of steering, mostly due to rudder loss, 1 was loss of keel but the boat survived and one was loss of propulsion. But sometimes it is hard to know the exact cause.

Edit: it is very hard to track these problems as many are not posted on these forums.
I know that. That's why I am using only the ARC data, a high profile rally very well documented and object of reports from several magazines. The data from the years between 1997 and 2007 come from the ARC itself, so it is reliable. The last 5 years are still fresh. I am sure that we can find all the data on the internet regarding lost rudders on those 5 editions. I have also the Yachting world magazines of those years. They make always a special edition about everything that happened on the rally, how different equipment work...and of course a lost rudder are big news.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 21:02   #212
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Rebuilding a Pacific Seacraft rudder now. How many rudders have I had to fix which broke first? Several. How many have I repaired, rebuilt, or replaced, which were headed for imminent failure? Many. Dozens, for sure.

Want to decrease the odds of rudder failure, or, much more likely, a rudder rebuild? Don't buy a cheap boat with under built steering gear.

I think all this talk of percentage of boats who suffer failure at sea means little. Most bad rudders are caught before failure. Percentage of boats which have had a rudder replaced or rebuilt might be more revealing.
Rudders fail - on bluewater boats and on production boats. So, price really isn't the primary factor. The main takeaway is that you need to look after your rudder like you look after any other system on your boat (more-so actually). The issue is, most people (it seems) don't.

However, if you're working on that many rudders, maybe this is changing.
__________________

__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 21:19   #213
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,099
Re: Rudder Failures

Hard to see big numbers in boats like Hr or Amels for example, or Swans! i mean big numbers, sure a Swan can loose a rudder but is rare, most rudders failures come from production boats , that kind of boats made it in a week and pumped from the yard doors like donuts!!! Hunter have a pretty good record... Im sure they are doing better this days, i hope...


Price really is the primary factor Mack, design and build a really good steering system cost money , like everything in a boat, why you think they take corners and shortcuts here and there??
__________________
neilpride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 21:25   #214
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: Rudder Failures

I just realized that I had one more rudder incident logged with not much information.

Unknown boat not abandoned but rudder shaft snapped.
Rudder Stock Failure - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 21:27   #215
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Price really is the primary factor Mack, design and build a really good steering system cost money , like everything in a boat, why you think they take corners and shortcuts here and there??
Well, I believe engineering, materials, and maintenance are the primary factors. Price is in there - but it's not primary - at least not in the boats we're talking about.
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 21:31   #216
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 4,024
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Well, I believe engineering, materials, and maintenance are the primary factors. Price is in there - but it's not primary.

If you build boats for a living and think money is not a primary factor in how all systems, steering included, are designed and built then your career will be very short.
__________________
transmitterdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 21:35   #217
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
If you build boats for a living and think money is not a primary factor in how all systems, steering included, are designed and built then your career will be very short.
You're missing my point - in the boats we are talking about in this thread, rudder failures are seen in boats that were/are on the low end of the price spectrum and on the high end of the price spectrum. In this regard, price is not the primary factor of success or failure, regardless of where the builder put the money.
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 21:44   #218
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Rudder Failures

Rudders, keels and that sinking feeling... | Sailing News

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/...reaches-shore/

Couple of cases from a recent search
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 21:46   #219
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Nice advert for Elan. But not that helpful.
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 23:05   #220
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 4,024
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Nice advert for Elan. But not that helpful.

Do you think brand B will be running puff pieces like that for publication? I doubt it.
__________________
transmitterdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 00:52   #221
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,948
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You're missing my point - in the boats we are talking about in this thread, rudder failures are seen in boats that were/are on the low end of the price spectrum and on the high end of the price spectrum. In this regard, price is not the primary factor of success or failure, regardless of where the builder put the money.
I'm not sure what your background is but your thought that price is not a factor, number 1 actually, suggests that you are not involved in how manufactures make decisions. I'm in the building business and I understand it very well, others are in the rebuild and repair business and they understand it very well. You seem to believe that the steering systems in the cheaper boats are built to the same standards as higher cost boats and that the failure rate is the same no matter what you pay for a boat, you are simply wrong. Others are trying to give you feedback so you might be a little more skeptical on how you view this topic but it doesn't appear that its sinking in.
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 03:36   #222
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 4,024
Re: Rudder Failures

The price paid to the manufacturer for a yacht is a weak function of the cost to build it. That ratio is known as gross margin. Prices paid are driven by many factors such as perceived quality, brand recognition and competitive pricing for similarly situated boats. The challenge for the manufacturer is to get the gross margin as high as possible while trying to increase sales volume. It's up to the buyer to ascertain whether the means the builder's use to control their manufacturing costs are adequate. This thread clearly demonstrates that there is ample reason to dig around in the steering area and see how it was put together. But it is equally clear that many buyers don't. How many times has someone posted about seeing a new boat at a show and were impressed by the sturdy steering or bilge access. Usually it's more about location of heads and sleeping arrangements. Builders know this and prioritize accordingly.

If all manufacturers disclosed their gross margin and "sales and marketing costs" I suspect many would have a different perception of who makes the best yachts.
__________________
transmitterdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 05:39   #223
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,054
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
If you consider for example Island Packets and I know that some had problems too,

Polux,
Not doubting, just want to learn. I haven't heard of any failures on an IP, but if there have been, mind posting or sending me that data, links or whatever you have?

If there is any kind of common failure mode with an IP's rudder, I want to know what it is and look especially hard at that area this winter when she is on the hard.

Thanks
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 05:55   #224
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,054
Re: Rudder Failures

Guys
You have to be very careful with statistics as well.
Ex., Volvo's are not necessarily that much "safer" an automobile as other makes, but they have the reputation and largely due to that you see most Volvo's in the right lane driven by people that are cautious and follow the rules and have very few accidents.

I bought a 93 Camaro Z28 to take with me to Germany, the 93 was at that time the quickest and fastest stock Camaro that had been manufactured to that date and believe it or not according to the Insurance companies and the NHTSC, it had the best ratings of any American made car of it's size, so in an identical accident, the Camaro was the safest American made car of it's size to be in.
A couple of years later the actual accident statistics came out, guess what? You were more likely to be killed in a Camaro than any other American car of it's size? I guess the average Z28 driver wan't in the right lane following the rules?

So it seems the average user and the average use can have a rather large effect on statistics.

I liked my German neighbors saying about statistics, He said in Germany they have a saying, "Statistics are like a lady of the evening, if your paying, you get what you want."
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2014, 07:00   #225
Moderator
 
HappyMdRSailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Mississippi
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon-C22 Chrysler Sunpiper- 19 Potter-Preparing to cruise w/my girl
Posts: 5,980
Re: Rudder Failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I liked my German neighbors saying about statistics, He said in Germany they have a saying, "Statistics are like a lady of the evening, if your paying, you get what you want."
Seriously one of the best quotes of all time...
__________________

__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...

Mai Tai's fix everything...
HappyMdRSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rudder

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hurth / ZF M15A Transmission Failures tomj Propellers & Drive Systems 138 06-05-2016 05:05
Maine Passage - Successes and failures, Moving On... skipgundlach General Sailing Forum 2 20-08-2008 09:20
Warning: Pre-1994 Crewfit PFD failures hellosailor Health, Safety & Related Gear 0 12-07-2006 19:41
Bilge Pump Failures ? GordMay The Sailor's Confessional 6 14-08-2003 02:23
Equipment Failures GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 2 31-03-2003 17:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 13:42.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.