Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-10-2012, 12:25   #61
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Boat: Hitchhiker, Catamaran, 40'
Posts: 354
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

"The 3 simple basics of flattening a main are as follows.
Vang on
Cunningham on
Out haul on.

Plus Backstay On (for boats that have one)"

This tactic mentioned by a previous poster is what I call vang sheeting. It is a racing tactic used in small keel boats and dinghies on windy days when closehauled. The technique is to tighten the vang as much as possible when close hauled in an attempt to get a little more bend on the lower section of mast (flattening the sail a little more). However, in nearly all situations, loosening the vang will allow the main to twist and spill wind. If you are knocked down (spreaders touching the water) the proper course of action is to release whichever sheet or vang or traveller that you can reach first and then go for the next one.
__________________

__________________
Thumbs Up is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 12:39   #62
Registered User
 
cfarrar's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brooklin, Maine U.S.A
Boat: Allures 44
Posts: 734
Images: 2
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Ah, but what if the boom is already out just about as far as it will go (ie, where it should be on a boat with aft swept spreaders that's on a beam reach)?
__________________

__________________
cfarrar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 12:47   #63
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Boat: Hitchhiker, Catamaran, 40'
Posts: 354
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Boats with aft swept spreaders have problems depowering the main. If you were to release the sheet or loosen the vang your sail will be against the spreaders. I do not know the answer.
__________________
Thumbs Up is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 13:41   #64
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,764
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Dump the main sheet. If you are not setup to do so in seconds, then get setup that way. Rounding up will just make you heel further. How is it your traveler is easier to dump than the main sheet...? I've been on racing boats where one person runs the mainsheet, he never cleats it off on a reach and adjusts according to the wind puffs.... working constantly to keep it full but keep the boat flat-ish.
Sorry, but millions of cruising boats can't be set up that way. Mainsheet runs through the boom to the gooseneck and through a turning block to the coachroof, quite a long ways away (across the room) from the helm. Like on millions of other cruising boats. In questionable conditions, I do put a crew on that position, ready to dump the mainsheet, but even that is not a panacea.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 14:38   #65
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,371
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Never was an issue on any of mine 21-47 feet. Where there's a will there's a way.... if you intend to singlehand a boat, dont buy one that's setup so it cant be controlled! Woiuld you buy a boat that had teh engine controls too far away from the helm to use?
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 16:02   #66
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,243
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sorry, but millions of cruising boats can't be set up that way. Mainsheet runs through the boom to the gooseneck and through a turning block to the coachroof, quite a long ways away (across the room) from the helm. Like on millions of other cruising boats. In questionable conditions, I do put a crew on that position, ready to dump the mainsheet, but even that is not a panacea.
With that arrangement I would consider a cam cleat at the edge of the coachroof, and a long enough line to reach the helm. Just lift the sheet to dump the main.

A similar arrangement works well for the vang sheet.
__________________
MarkSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:04   #67
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfarrar View Post
On most boats with a traveller you leave the vang loose upwind, because the traveller sets the twist, and vang tension isn't needed until you bear off, the traveller's down, and you start to ease the main sheet.
I agree with most of what you said except this bit. Traveler only controls boom position or what I like to call angle of attack = alpha

What bugs me about newer trimmers is that with boom over traveler they are messing about too much with vang, mainsheet and outhaul.

Once on the windward leg the sail shape should remain pretty constant. (suspending dinghy's and beach cats as their controls and tactics would only further confuse this thread - Beach cats and dinghy's don't tend to round up - they get knocked over - LOL)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctl411 View Post
If the day looks close to the top of your wind range change down head sail size.
This is a notable point. Many tactics being discussed are about a rig that is overpowered. If the increase in wind speed is persistent one needs to consider a permanent sail change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbs Up View Post

First of all, if you are in traffic (racing), You can't head up or fall off much but let's assume you have plenty room. If you were closehauled you could easily luff a little (head up) in the puffs to keep the boat sailing flatter but on a beam reach I think you are better falling off a little but if your wife is at the helm and panicking and you tell her to fall off she might well send you into a gybe.
For OPs condition I stated and will state again - Head up. The boat may heel more momentarily but afterwards the boat is luffed, stalled, parked and in control. Bearing away leaves the boat powered up. In fact when reaching there is a risk of exposing more of the flat mainsail broadside to the wind inviting a knockdown. Let's say what got you was the leading edge of a squall - the rain hasn't arrived but the wind precedes it. 15kts became a 25kt persistent shift. Guess what? If it's a squall 30-40kts could be right behind it. Luffed up you are safe even if the sails are getting beat up.

Racing or not you can always head up. In fact if I was pinned under someone in strong conditions I would be definitely trying to overpoint (pinch) the boat trading speed for pointing in an attempt to get him to tack away.

However in general what should be happening is crew anticipating the gusts and reacting accordingly for the race plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumbs Up View Post
Boats with aft swept spreaders have problems depowering the main. If you were to release the sheet or loosen the vang your sail will be against the spreaders. I do not know the answer.
I have swept spreaders and downwind I have no problem blowing the vang and depowering. It's a bit ugly as the main sail lays backwards across the spreaders but it is depowered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sorry, but millions of cruising boats can't be set up that way. Mainsheet runs through the boom to the gooseneck and through a turning block to the coachroof, quite a long ways away (across the room) from the helm. Like on millions of other cruising boats. In questionable conditions, I do put a crew on that position, ready to dump the mainsheet, but even that is not a panacea.
This is a huge tradeoff on cruising short handed. Your options are to rerig the boat so the controls are at hand or sailing conservatively (underpowered more often) so you aren't at the edge.

To rephrase what someone else said - Would you drive a car on the freeway if the steering wheel were in the front seat and the throttle and brake pedal in the trunk?
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:14   #68
Registered User
 
cfarrar's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brooklin, Maine U.S.A
Boat: Allures 44
Posts: 734
Images: 2
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Quote:
On most boats with a traveller you leave the vang loose upwind, because the traveller sets the twist...

I agree with most of what you said except this bit. Traveler only controls boom position or what I like to call angle of attack = alpha
Good catch, Ex-Calif! I meant to say that in moderate breeze the mainsheet sets the twist (and you play the traveller).
__________________
cfarrar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:31   #69
Registered User
 
bewitched's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 885
Images: 3
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
For OPs condition I stated and will state again - Head up. The boat may heel more momentarily but afterwards the boat is luffed, stalled, parked and in control. ?
Have to pull you up on that one:

The boat may heel more momentarily but afterwards the boat is luffed, stalled, parked and completely out of control.

I believe the answer to the OPs question is to maintain course and depower the main. There are a number of ways to achieve this:

- Ease main to open top leech - my preferred approach

- Ease vang to open top leech - not an option for me as I would not have any vang on on a broad reach as I would be using the main sheet to control top leech

- Down traveller.. may work, but not a great choice on a reach as you'll most likely run out of traveller before the sail is depowered sufficiently
__________________
bewitched is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:39   #70
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

This has all got rather esoteric.

I think there's one more basic, boat handling point, which experienced sailors do automatically without realising (hence often don't pass it on).

I think it might relate directly to the OP's question:

When heading up for a gust, start early, do it smoothly and don't overdo it. The last thing you want to do is pop bolt upright and be a sitting duck for the next gust.

Similarly, if you need to ease the main to stand the boat up: follow the same three counsels as for heading up. In tender boats or strong gusts, you'll need to head up and ease the main.

You need to try to keep some speed and some heel on: the former gives you control, and the latter is effectively a way of being reefed down (less projected area)

Another reason to keep speed up is that this reduces the % increase AND the directional change of the apparent wind in the next gust.

If you have significant others whose anxiety is a direct function of heel angle, it's a hard call. Sailing in gusty conditions is always going to be a compromise between what's best for the boat and what's best for them.

On bearing away (when you're broader off than a beam reach), I agree with Daddle: you have to do it BEFORE the gust gets to you. If you wait to see how bad it is, the decision gets taken out of your hands, as bearing away during a strong gust is not generally possible.

With this proviso, running off is the only strategy for flat water and a prolonged killer gust, such as you tend to get in fiords and the like. Like a >30 knot gust when you're carrying canvas for 15.
If you head up, you'll likely flog a sail to death. And scare everybody witless...
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:43   #71
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
Have to pull you up on that one:

The boat may heel more momentarily but afterwards the boat is luffed, stalled, parked and completely out of control.

I believe the answer to the OPs question is to maintain course and depower the main. There are a number of ways to achieve this:

- Ease main to open top leech - my preferred approach

- Ease vang to open top leech - not an option for me as I would not have any vang on on a broad reach as I would be using the main sheet to control top leech

- Down traveller.. may work, but not a great choice on a reach as you'll most likely run out of traveller before the sail is depowered sufficiently
Out of control is probably a fair assessment but in responding "only" to OPs question about what to do with helm it's steer up for me.

I would rather be stalled out of control than heading downwind out of control Your depowering options run away fast downwind.

I am imagining the OP got surprised by a gust and the boat is already heeling - natural instinct seems to be head down.

Without some sort of sheeting action - which OP eventually did - the boat goes more out of control downwind and things can get dangerous - especially if the gust is a squall front.

I'll give you that the headed boat is "out of control"
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:46   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Running off does expose the full area of the mainsail perpendicular to the wind, but that's not a problem because that greatly increased force is going into driving the boat forward and pitching the bow down a degree or two, whereas beam reaching or tighter, the reduced force is trying to drag the boat sideways and heel it an additional ten or twenty degrees.

Another overlooked point is that a flogging sail, although it creates buggerall lift, creates a lot of drag in comparison with a sail which is either drawing, or feathered (because when it flogs, it's sweeping repeatedly across quite a wide swathe of the windstream).

Not a great thing to have way up in the sky, acting sideways to the boat, IMO
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:49   #73
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
This has all got rather esoteric.

I think there's one more basic, boat handling point, which experienced sailors do automatically without realising (hence often don't pass it on).

I think it might relate directly to the OP's question:

When heading up for a gust, start early, do it smoothly and don't overdo it. The last thing you want to do is pop bolt upright and be a sitting duck for the next gust.

Similarly, if you need to ease the main to stand the boat up: follow the same three counsels as for heading up. In tender boats or strong gusts, you'll need to head up and ease the main.
We are subject to lots of convective weather here - i.e. large changes in conditions that persist for 30 minutes or persist until you sail out of the convection influence.

One tactic we use is exactly what you describe. Sails depowered (flat, twist, etc.) but then sailing very close and heading up in the gusts (even momentarily luffing) while trying to maintain boat speed.

A sail change is not a good idea because in a couple of miles we could be in a 5kt drift.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:53   #74
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Another reason to do both (head up and ease main) is in case the next gust is a header.

If you rely solely on heading up, the risk is that you'll be going slow, with your bow too close to the wind, when a header comes through. It's not great fun to be put about in a gust when you're carrying too much sail ahead of the mast.

I'm probably contributing to thread drift here, though, because that's really only likely if you were already close reaching or tighter, unless the windshifts are heroic in angle.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2012, 18:57   #75
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Rounding Up... Other Tactics & Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Running off does expose the full area of the mainsail perpendicular to the wind, but that's not a problem because that greatly increased force is going into driving the boat forward and pitching the bow down a degree or two, whereas beam reaching or tighter, the reduced force is trying to drag the boat sideways and heel it an additional ten or twenty degrees.

Another overlooked point is that a flogging sail, although it creates buggerall lift, creates a lot of drag in comparison with a sail which is either drawing, or feathered (because when it flogs, it's sweeping repeatedly across quite a wide swathe of the windstream).

Not a great thing to have way up in the sky, acting sideways to the boat, IMO
Don't get me wrong - fully crewed there are other options.

Sometimes in my discussion I switch to "OP's dilemma mode" - 2up (one may be inexperienced spouse) and building, gusting or whatever conditions.

Strategy one is clearly depower as easily as possible - traveler, main and/or vang.

Strategy 2 is steer - up or down? With 2 up down has more risk. Boat has tons of power on, if you go too deep you can accidentally gybe and maybe broach. You can't reef the main, you can blow the genny sheet but now you have a sail out of control and only a helmsman and one trimmer to take care of things. The trimmer is likely dealing with an inverted mainsail.

(Actually this reminds me of a situation I got in. Two up on my boat we pinched too much trying to clear a ship (another story) - anyway we fell off with zero boat speed, went ddw, accidentally gybed. The genny had been "blown" to try and avoid the wind taking the bow through and after the gybe the genny was wrapped backwards around the forestay - guess what? Couldn't furl it. We had to stay DDW and I had to unwrap the genny manually which was impossible with the wind. Eventually poled it out in reverse and "ungybed" it under main alone - probably a PITA with an inexperienced spouse at the helm)

Up and stalled you could hove to, you can blow genny or main halyard. You can sheet the genny back on and reef the main. With a furler you can take the genny in. Most of these options go away if you head down.
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.