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Old 14-05-2014, 17:10   #16
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

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Originally Posted by Dustymc View Post
My 15HP Yamaha weighs 74lbs - not sure where they found an extra 15LBs for the Enduro. ~25LBs is, for me anyway, the difference between being able to sling the thing around and needing mechanical assistance. My 25 weighs 106, and it's just an entirely different thing to handle than the 15.

I also paid about $1000 less than Suzuki's MSRP for my 15.
If you have the non-Enduro Y15, then you have one of the best small outboards ever made. Yes, it is much lighter than the Enduro versions (but I think it is 76lbs ), and uses different parts in many places - they are not the same engine.

Unfortunately, you need to go to Australia or the Asian regions to get one. Even in the Caribe, Central and South America, it is all Enduro.

Hard to compare prices between old and new engines. The Suzuki 15hp in the US is the same price as the Yamaha Enduro and Tohatsu 2-strokes in Panama. I believe it is also the same price as the Enduro in Nassau Bahamas. It was less expensive than the non-fuel injected Suzuki 15hp 4-stroke in Guatemala.

The Yamaha and Honda 4-strokes do have a much dearer price on them.

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Old 14-05-2014, 17:22   #17
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

[QUOTE=colemj;1541344]The weight differences between 2 and 4 strokes nowadays are inconsequential. For example, our new Suzuki 20hp 4-stroke weighs 97lbs. A new Yamaha Enduro 15hp 2-stroke weighs 89lbs. A new Tohatsu 18hp 2-stroke weighs 93lbs. When you consider that you need to carry an extra 3gal of gas for comparable use of these 2-stroke engines, the weight penalty turns in favor of the 4-strokes. The weight meme is an old one no longer valid with today's engines.


That is not the way it looked to me. I was in a Yamaha dealer in Guatemala and they had both side by side. For example, the 8hp 2 stroke was 2/3 the size of the 4 stroke model. And, to whomever said the 4 stroke is more powerful than the 2 stroke, I think is wrong. I will admit, that at part power a 4 stroke is smoother but at full chat, a 2 stroke rules.
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Old 14-05-2014, 17:41   #18
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

4-strokes are heavier than 2-strokes by a noticeable amount.
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Old 14-05-2014, 17:46   #19
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The way horsepower was measured changed in 1983, but even then, as now, the measurement standard was used consistently across engines. There isn't, or wasn't, a measurement for 2-strokes different than that for 4-strokes.

The OP was discussing new engines - not comparing a pre-1983 with a 2014 model.

We are currently out and getting outer. I don't understand why non-optimum is a poor term to use for a prop that does not have the optimum pitch or diameter for the loads the engine is under. Metric I apologize for - I'm an ex-scientist and it is a word we used in everyday speech to describe a measured quantity or quantifiable quality. How am I incorrect with these terms?

Mark
Okay, I'll look it up tomorrow maybe. (long day today)

When I was doing my research as to whether or not to get a 4 stroke.

(since I had owned like 6 or 8 two strokes in the past on my old power boats as a teenager and in my early 20's)

what I came up with was that the 5 hp was comparable to about a 7.5 hp 2 stroke. I'll have to look it up again, but I think it had to do with the fact that the old motors hp was measured at the power head possibly. Whereas, the new ones at the prop, but I'd have to recheck. Maybe someone else has already stated this.
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Old 14-05-2014, 17:57   #20
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RIB and outboard advice

HP is HP doesn't matter where it comes from, but I've seen numerous examples of how manufacturers marketing depts can "play" with numbers. Actually unless things have changed, there are different HP's, SAE and JIS for example, but assume the Yamaha and the Suzuki's HP's are measured the same way as we will really never know.
The little Zuki's HP comes at a 4.85 lb per HP, the Yamaha Enduro comes in at 5.9 lb per HP.
The little Zuki is a ultra low emission engine, is the Yamaha? The Zuki is a "lean burn" engine that due to electronic controls burns lean of peak EGT at partial throttle which greatly reduces fuel consumption and emissions, does the Yamaha?
Suzuki has a rev limiter and prevents engine over reving, Yamaha?
The Suzuki fuel system is sealed, means no air, no evaporation of fuel and apparently no ethanol issues as it was designed to burn ethanol fuel, just like a modern automobile. How about the Yamaha? How often do you have to clean the carb?
But heck with all of that, I believe I'd pick the engine that can be supported by parts etc. where I was cruising as the priority.
Full disclosure, I bought the 20 HP Suzuki, and I have owned two stroke outboards for most of my life and still own one, a 25 HP mariner, but nothing I have ever owned starts as easily, is as quiet as this Suzuki, to say nothing of never having any exhaust smell or smoke.
Also while I hate having gasoline on the boat, with a four stroke outboard my little Honda Gen and the outboard can share the same can
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Old 14-05-2014, 18:13   #21
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

Go into the jungle, remote coast, Yamaha Enduro 2 strokes. The smaller the 4 stroke, the more fuel problems, their jet sizes are too small for fuel from the backwaters..
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Old 14-05-2014, 18:14   #22
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

After a quick search, I found this concerning HP measurement on outboards then and now:

Horsepower Ratings c.1983 - Moderated Discussion Areas
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Old 14-05-2014, 18:23   #23
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

AB or Caribe were good prices in St Martin years ago.
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Old 14-05-2014, 19:17   #24
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
4-strokes are heavier than 2-strokes by a noticeable amount.
Did you even read my post above listing actual weights of these engines? Your statement is uninformed and in direct contradiction to the facts.

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Old 14-05-2014, 19:23   #25
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Okay, I'll look it up tomorrow maybe. (long day today)

When I was doing my research as to whether or not to get a 4 stroke.

(since I had owned like 6 or 8 two strokes in the past on my old power boats as a teenager and in my early 20's)

what I came up with was that the 5 hp was comparable to about a 7.5 hp 2 stroke. I'll have to look it up again, but I think it had to do with the fact that the old motors hp was measured at the power head possibly. Whereas, the new ones at the prop, but I'd have to recheck. Maybe someone else has already stated this.
As I stated, hp used to be measured differently than it is now (direct off the crankshaft, or something like that). However, under each measurement system, all engines were treated identically. If one were to buy an 8hp 2-stroke and an 8hp 4-stroke today (and even back then), the horsepower of each are identical. The torque may be different, but that is usually compensated for with gearing, rpm and prop choice.

Yes, if one was to compare a 1969 6hp 2-stroke with a 2014 6hp 4-stroke, then they may not be comparable - which way they would differ, I don't know.

But horses have always been horses between contemporaries.

Mark
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Old 14-05-2014, 19:33   #26
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
Go into the jungle, remote coast, Yamaha Enduro 2 strokes. The smaller the 4 stroke, the more fuel problems, their jet sizes are too small for fuel from the backwaters..
Yet, the remote coast jungle where you and your boat are right now has a very large Suzuki dealer selling a full range of parts and providing service. In Panama, which has a huge Enduro presence, it is difficult to get parts for the Enduro - many people find it easier to order them elsewhere and ship them in.

Dealers around the world and in the most remotest places carry fewer and fewer parts anymore because they cannot afford the inventory (or the policing and managing of the inventory) and it is much easier to just Fed-X them in as necessary. It is just as easy for anyone to do so for any engine (or non-engine stuff in general).

Besides, this old saw gets thrown around so often that I just have to wonder how reliable these Enduros are that they constantly need so many parts? We ran the hell out of our previous Honda 15hp 4-stroke, and all I ever needed for it in 15yrs was an impeller and an exhaust pipe gasket.

If you are not carrying around an impeller, spare prop, plugs, and carb kit for your outboard while cruising remote coast jungles, you aren't thinking clearly.

I do agree that the smaller the 4-stroke, the worse the carb jet problems are. However, this is also true enough for 2-strokes. And as I wrote earlier, if you are running any outboard anywhere nowadays without an external filter/water separator, you are asking for trouble.

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Old 14-05-2014, 19:40   #27
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

While that Suzuki sure sounds nice, I have to wonder about its long term reliability in the harsh world of the cruising yottie. As you may have noticed, in that world, **** happens, even to the prepared and careful. An example: our 9 year old Yamaha 15 two stroke has had essentially zero maintenance. Well, we have changed the gearcase oil once, and regapped the plugs once and cleaned the carb several times (close together) after getting a bunch of watered fuel. And that's it, in nine years of full time cruising and constant use. OH... I guess you could call it additional maintenance when the dinghy got flipped in a severe storm out in Port Davey (western Tasmania). It was submerged for a few hours before I could get at it. Hosed it off with fresh water, pulled the plugs and cranked it over a few times, squirted oil in the cylinders, cranked it some more, drained the carb, and fired it up... works fine, has done so for the ensuing 15 months.

How do you think the Suzi, with its sophisticated systems, would do with this (not atypical) usage? I have to doubt that it will be as forgiving.

Now I suppose that folks will say that I am a crude and thoughtless yottie, but I seem to see lots of other such folks in far off places who share my bad habits. When you are several hundred (or thousand) miles from the nearest "authorized service center" your attitudes towards things changes.

Cheers,

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Old 14-05-2014, 21:05   #28
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

Well, our last Honda 4-stroke had a computer controlling it (these computers are embedded in a block of epoxy, BTW, and are very common in almost all outboards made nowadays) and we had zero issues with it over 15yrs. Those 15yrs included the following maintenance: 1 oil change, 1 impeller, 1 exhaust pipe gasket. No plug or carb issues of any type, and it was running on its original plugs and carb when we sold it (fouled plugs and carbs are two of those items that just suck in 2-strokes compared to 4-strokes because of the oil and rich fuel mixtures). For 5 of those 15yrs, it spent 6 months of each winter frozen and covered with snow as it sat on the dinghy on the boat. When it wasn't frozen, we ran the royal crap out of it. It is still running on another boat now.

Granted, I never put it under water for a few hours, but I have recovered 4-strokes that have been dunked and the procedure is pretty much the same. There is one difference - a 2-stroke dunked while running stands a good chance of having no damage while a 4-stroke has a good chance of damaging valves.

So yes, I agree with you - if you are careless enough to submerge your engine while running, it is better to have a 2-stroke. Unless you are in countries where 2-strokes are not sold and very difficult to get (and are actually illegal to operate in some areas).

I don't understand arguments about long-term reliability - should one wait 15yrs to see before purchasing something? This argument is made for absolutely everything new and never makes sense (except for Microsoft products).

In case you don't understand fuel injection, it has been in use for decades by all outboard manufacturers. The only thing "new" about the 15-20hp Suzuki, is that they are the first to move fuel injection down in their range from the 25hp+ models.

Yes, **** happens. But by that reasoning, one should not have any outboard or inflatable at all. And many other things on a boat should be gotten rid of. I mean, where does that reasoning stop, and how does one decide where the threshold is?

I know the threshold is Volvo, saildrives and 4-strokes for you Jim, but others may have better skills, knowledge or different experiences than you.

BTW, the majority of people we meet with engine problems are fighting with 2-strokes. The only 4-stroke problems I routinely see are carb issues with <8hp models and the Yamaha 15/20hp model in particular. Everyone else is fighting Enduro and Tohatsu carburetor and power issues in far greater proportions than the 4-stroke owners.

Again, install a fuel filter/water separator and don't put your outboard underwater and pretty much any brand/model/combustion cycle outboard you get will run reliably.

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Old 14-05-2014, 22:17   #29
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

G'Day all,

Mark writes:

"Yes, **** happens. But by that reasoning, one should not have any outboard or inflatable at all. And many other things on a boat should be gotten rid of. I mean, where does that reasoning stop, and how does one decide where the threshold is?

I know the threshold is Volvo, saildrives and 4-strokes for you Jim, but others may have better skills, knowledge or different experiences than you."

Well, Mark, once again we seem to have irreconcilable points of view. You have your experience, I have mine, and they apparently come from different universes.

But I fail to see how the fact that "**** happens", ie there are infrequent and unexpected disasters that crop up in the cruising environment, should keep me from having an outboard or an inflatable. That may result from your reasoning, but not from mine. My reasoning says that where it is feasible, one should utilize simpler and easier to fix items rather than complex and difficult to fix items. IMO, the well proven 2 stroke 15 hp Yamaha is very hard to improve upon, and their enduring popularity seems to indicate that others feel the same way. Four strokers do have some good features, such as better fuel economy (although apparently the better new 2 strokes are not far behind) and quieter operation, and I appreciate those factors... just not enough to offset their (to me) downsides.

I'm also not alone in my views on Volvo engines and saildrives. You disagree, and that's fine with me, but it does not mean that I am wrong to feel as I do. My opinions are, of course, based on what I have myself observed, and that is a very small subset of the whole world's experiences. Many opinions expressed here on CF are based on heresay or worse, as I am sure you have noticed. Some opinions are based on skills and knowledge superior to mine (as you so kindly point out), and I try to appreciate them and add them to my knowledge base. Some are based on personal observations that are just different than mine... after all, strange things happen at sea, and none of us can see them all, and thus two well meaning and thoughtful folks can derive differing points of view.

So, I will continue to express myself as best I can, and leave it up to those posting the questions to evaluate the worth of my ideas. You will perhaps continue to deride those posts, and that's ok with me for it is an open forum. On my part I will try not to argue with you. Dunno how that will work out!

Jim
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Old 14-05-2014, 23:21   #30
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Re: RIB and outboard advice

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Did you even read my post above...
I may have read it and considered it of no importance.

4-strokes are heavier than 2-strokes.
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