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Old 21-11-2011, 10:18   #106
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
This is a volunteer driven operation. If you want something to happen, the best and really only way, is to drive it yourself to make it happen. If you do the research and put together training material I am sure they would find you a spot in a SAS to try it out and see how valuable the audience thinks it. Otherwise you need to sign up a real champion who will do the work and follow it thru. DO NOT assume that you can just chuck the idea into the Committee with some notes and expect anything to happen.

The only caveat I would add is that the SAS curriculum is pretty full and rescues by ship are relatively rare for the US racing fleet (Which is the prime target audience for the SAS - Bermuda and Hawaii are required to attend, which makes the vast majority of the audience). So, the stuff would have to be really crisp and succinct - I would think you could do it with about 10 slides and a half dozen of those youtubes.

This is actually somewhat a more significant and frequent topic for offshore cruisers than for the race fleet. The SAS has for years thought about trying to get more involved with cruisers but for various reasons has not really accomplished it. They did run a 'suddenly alone' seminar targeted at training first mates what to do when the skipper goes MOB, but after a good start that seems to have fizzled out. I think the challenge is #1 because they are so used to a forced/required audience and it requires a different mindset to attract a voluntary audience, and #2 because almost all the committee members (except me I believe) are first and foremost racers who sort of look down upon cruisers as not really serious sailors (my honest impression and I don't mean to criticise anyone with it).

Chuck Hawley is the new chair (just in place this month) of the Committee and a terrific guy who would be very receptive to this sort of initiative. I would be happy to help in any way I can. If you follow any of my posts on safety you will know that I am a training and skills over equipment kind of guy and think that any knowledge and training that discourages people from getting off their boat except as a very very last resort is a good thing.
Perfect. Thanks for the feedback. I would love to speak with Chuck about this.

As you can probably already tell, I am more than happy to do the legwork/research. If what you see in the draft proposal makes sense, I'm happy put together a PowerPoint "session" presentation based on that outline.

However, the bottom line is that I will very, very quickly run out of expertise. Though we are getting some great feedback from knowledgable dudes (both sailors and seamen) - I just want to make absolutely sure that this thing is factually correct and that the recommendations are spot on...for very obvious reasons.

The beauty of working something like this through the various forums is that I think involvement by the broader sailing community (racers and cruisers) is not only a way to ensure its validity - but to also raise awareness of how important this information is...especially to cruisers.
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Old 21-11-2011, 10:27   #107
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Perfect. Thanks for the feedback. I would love to speak with Chuck about this.

As you can probably already tell, I am more than happy to do the legwork/research. If what you see in the draft proposal makes sense, I'm happy put together a PowerPoint "session" presentation based on that outline.

However, the bottom line is that I will very, very quickly run out of expertise. Though we are getting some great feedback from knowledgable dudes (both sailors and seamen) - I just want to make absolutely sure that this thing is factually correct and that the recommendations are spot on...for very obvious reasons.

The beauty of working something like this through the various forums is that I think involvement by the broader sailing community (racers and cruisers) is not only a way to ensure its validity - but to also raise awareness of how important this information is...especially to cruisers.
I'll help where I can....Chuck knows me through SAS at Annapolis (used to speak and sit on panels with him...he convinced me to stay in the Marine business and not go Wash, DC defense contractor plus a couple Trwler Fests...though we lost touch years ago.

Feel free to email me if you need something or research...psneeld at Yahoo dot com.
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Old 21-11-2011, 10:35   #108
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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I'll help where I can....Chuck knows me through SAS at Annapolis (used to speak and sit on panels with him...he convinced me to stay in the Marine business and not go Wash, DC defense contractor plus a couple Trwler Fests...though we lost touch years ago.

Feel free to email me if you need something or research...psneeld at Yahoo dot com.
Will do, ps. At this point, just let me know what holes you see in the draft proposal (linked above). Currently it's laid out to fit into the ISAF regs, and then break out as a "session". If you and Evans (and others) think that it's pretty solid, I can work on the presentation content/script based on that.

The script is obviously where the rubber will meet the road, and where expertise that I'm sorely lacking will be required.
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Old 24-11-2011, 02:59   #109
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Of course there are degrees of prepaaration.
Your view not mine, simple.
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Old 24-11-2011, 05:25   #110
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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What they show me is EXACTLY what it's like going to sea.
Really, an ill prepared trawler, some ridiculous scenes, a yacht skipper made to look stupid by a “Hollywood” script?
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You sir...are just digging yourself deeper....
You are obviously not infantry trained.
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Old 24-11-2011, 05:43   #111
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Yes, I know exactly where my climbing harness is. But if I did not have it I would probably prefer to tie a seat harness out of some spare sail tie webbing (out of our coaming locker, takes about 30 seconds to tie up) and be hoisted by that, rather than tie to the pfd.

My point is that most pfd's really and truly suck for lifting people. There is a serious chance many people will slide out, unless they have it adjusted just right, and also a serious chance of rib damage unless it fits just right (And unfortunately they don't come in different sizes). If you are going to be presenting pfd/harnesses as the last resort lifting point in any sort of training, then people should know #1 what are the better devices (climbing harnesses) and #2 what they need to do to make the pfd even minimally safe for lifting (adjustment and sizing and crotch straps).

Honestly an offshore cruising boat should have a climbing harness in any case for going up the mast at sea.
How Secure Are Yachting Harnesses?
in case you missed it
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Old 24-11-2011, 06:19   #112
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Really, an ill prepared trawler, some ridiculous scenes, a yacht skipper made to look stupid by a “Hollywood” script?

You are obviously not infantry trained.
No...not infantry trained...spent most of my life as a professional rescuer at sea...so I guess your infantry training comes in pretty handy when discussing safety and survival at sea.....
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Old 24-11-2011, 06:46   #113
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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No...not infantry trained...spent most of my life as a professional rescuer at sea...so I guess your infantry training comes in pretty handy when discussing safety and survival at sea.....
Down to earth training can be beneficial to anyone.
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Old 24-11-2011, 07:34   #114
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I've lurked in this thread, wondering what to say.

Large vessels rescuing small boats at sea is a privilege. One that we don't really deserve. We don't have to be there. Hence expecting such commercial crews to expose themselves needlessly to danger is ridiculous.

Furthermore the officers of modern commercial vessels are in general well trained ( and I draw attention to a post denigrating the marine training and colleges of European and other nations) certainly these officers will observe the first law of rescue and that is not to put yourself in danger of becoming a casualty.

In addition commercial captains will be aware of their vessels limitations and also the crews capabilities and equipment on board. Commercial deep sea vessels have little or no expertise in handling a lifeboat or rescue boat and I suspect the captains will be never risk it's deployment. Hence that leaves the over the side recovery method.

In my opinion the skipper of S/V Triumph is fundamentally wrong in attaching any blame to his rescuers. I suspect his anger at having to abandon ship when he didn't want to is mis directed. It's worth noting that in fact that the transfer of his wife went quite smoothly, it was only that he entangled himself in a line from his own boat that the trouble began.

While anyone applauds a project to increase training and awareness for sailors in rescue situations. I really doubt it's effectiveness. Firstly the vast majority of boating and hence rescues takes place within the range of official rescue services and there exist several sea survival courses to deal with that situation.

However deep sea rescue affects a tiny tiny proportion of sailors. Equally while there have been casualties, most are rescued successfully, albeit some in a hair raising manner. Transferring from a small boat to a large vessel is fraught with problems in a large seaway. Almost inevitably the small boat is severely damaged in the process and often terminally.

Training must be relevant to be useful and must be comprehensive enough to impart useful knowledge. Deep sea rescue training would struggle to meet these criteria. Take-up would be minuscule and it's difficult to impart real useful techniques in typical unstressed unrealistic leisure training environments. Contrast this with the type of expensive in depth hands on training say RNLI lifeboat volunteers get.

Finally since few such rescues are similar and each case is different, there is certainly no body of experience from ships captains as well as leisure skippers to draw conclusions. Nor has anyone done so, hence it's difficult to formulate a training scheme without such conclusions. smack daddy's piece while laudable contains no actual solutions or procedures other then basically saying " big ship rescue is dangerous and may cause your death". Other then that it's just a summary of S/V triumphs experience and some others.

We have a great privilege in that commercial vessels will divert at great cost to us, undertake rescues of WAFIs ( look it up ) and then look after them on the voyage at no cost. It would be easy for the IMO ( which by the way Smackdaddy is the organisation that controls all this) to mandate that such rescues were too risky and shouldn't be attempted and where would that leave deep sea leisure rescue. Criticism of such rescuers is entirely inappropriate in my view, almost irrespective of the circumstances.

The very best we can do is to ensure that we call on this privilege as rarely as possible and that we prepare our vessels and our crews so that such voyages are completed safely without need to rescue. In particular we should ensure that "panic" rescues shouldn't happen.

Dave
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Old 24-11-2011, 08:01   #115
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

somewhat marginally relevant experience just happened down in the south Atlantic. Puma (volvo race boat) has been dismasted and diverted a container ship to drop them several hundred lts of diesel. The (Russian) skipper of the container ship wanted puma to tie alongside on his lee side, in the open ocean. Ken Reed (skipper of puma) thought that was nuts and would destroy his boat. They agreed that puma would stand off just a little during the fuel transfer (being done by passing drums).

Puma is going to Tristan da Cunha, where a second ship with an on deck crane and slings will come and lift puma on board and take her to capetown. This will again be done in the open ocean - lee of Tristan because puma is too deep for the very small harbour on Tristan.
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Old 24-11-2011, 08:36   #116
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+A1....

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I've lurked in this thread, wondering what to say.

Large vessels rescuing small boats at sea is a privilege. One that we don't really deserve. We don't have to be there. Hence expecting such commercial crews to expose themselves needlessly to danger is ridiculous.

Furthermore the officers of modern commercial vessels are in general well trained ( and I draw attention to a post denigrating the marine training and colleges of European and other nations) certainly these officers will observe the first law of rescue and that is not to put yourself in danger of becoming a casualty.

In addition commercial captains will be aware of their vessels limitations and also the crews capabilities and equipment on board. Commercial deep sea vessels have little or no expertise in handling a lifeboat or rescue boat and I suspect the captains will be never risk it's deployment. Hence that leaves the over the side recovery method.

In my opinion the skipper of S/V Triumph is fundamentally wrong in attaching any blame to his rescuers. I suspect his anger at having to abandon ship when he didn't want to is mis directed. It's worth noting that in fact that the transfer of his wife went quite smoothly, it was only that he entangled himself in a line from his own boat that the trouble began.

While anyone applauds a project to increase training and awareness for sailors in rescue situations. I really doubt it's effectiveness. Firstly the vast majority of boating and hence rescues takes place within the range of official rescue services and there exist several sea survival courses to deal with that situation.

However deep sea rescue affects a tiny tiny proportion of sailors. Equally while there have been casualties, most are rescued successfully, albeit some in a hair raising manner. Transferring from a small boat to a large vessel is fraught with problems in a large seaway. Almost inevitably the small boat is severely damaged in the process and often terminally.

Training must be relevant to be useful and must be comprehensive enough to impart useful knowledge. Deep sea rescue training would struggle to meet these criteria. Take-up would be minuscule and it's difficult to impart real useful techniques in typical unstressed unrealistic leisure training environments. Contrast this with the type of expensive in depth hands on training say RNLI lifeboat volunteers get.

Finally since few such rescues are similar and each case is different, there is certainly no body of experience from ships captains as well as leisure skippers to draw conclusions. Nor has anyone done so, hence it's difficult to formulate a training scheme without such conclusions. smack daddy's piece while laudable contains no actual solutions or procedures other then basically saying " big ship rescue is dangerous and may cause your death". Other then that it's just a summary of S/V triumphs experience and some others.

We have a great privilege in that commercial vessels will divert at great cost to us, undertake rescues of WAFIs ( look it up ) and then look after them on the voyage at no cost. It would be easy for the IMO ( which by the way Smackdaddy is the organisation that controls all this) to mandate that such rescues were too risky and shouldn't be attempted and where would that leave deep sea leisure rescue. Criticism of such rescuers is entirely inappropriate in my view, almost irrespective of the circumstances.

The very best we can do is to ensure that we call on this privilege as rarely as possible and that we prepare our vessels and our crews so that such voyages are completed safely without need to rescue. In particular we should ensure that "panic" rescues shouldn't happen.

Dave
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Old 24-11-2011, 08:57   #117
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Criticism of such rescuers is entirely inappropriate in my view, almost irrespective of the circumstances.

The very best we can do is to ensure that we call on this privilege as rarely as possible and that we prepare our vessels and our crews so that such voyages are completed safely without need to rescue. In particular we should ensure that "panic" rescues shouldn't happen.

Dave
Points well taken! Thanks
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Old 24-11-2011, 09:28   #118
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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smack daddy's piece while laudable contains no actual solutions or procedures other then basically saying " big ship rescue is dangerous and may cause your death". Other then that it's just a summary of S/V triumphs experience and some others.
I agree with your take on the criticism of rescuers. But I don't agree with your take that this kind of training isn't effective or necessary. There were two of these rescues just this year in a single event...the NARC.

From what I've seen in the training materials, this subject is not addressed at all. And it should be. Granted, your point that it's not applicable to the vast majority of inland/coastal sailors is correct - but there sure are a lot of cruising boats that take the same route as the NARC and/or Carib 1500, where this year's ship rescues took place. So I think the current USCG-centric focus is too narrow. Furthermore, I think one of the biggest benefits of this type of training will be a more sober evaluation of the actual danger level aboard a boat at sea weighed against the danger present in this type of rescue.

I'm working on the details/solutions/procedures with input and direction from some very experienced people. So what you see in this thread was just a starting point. Hopefully, with these sailors' help, we'll end up with something of value.

I ain't giving up.

(PS - Estar - did you read Kenny's account of the fuel transfer - and see the video? It touches on virtually every point we've talked about here...enormity of the ship, knowing that pulling alongside would destroy the boat even in mellow seas, the stress of being the one that has to keep things safe, etc.)
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Old 24-11-2011, 10:41   #119
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post


(PS - Estar - did you read Kenny's account of the fuel transfer - and see the video? It touches on virtually every point we've talked about here...enormity of the ship, knowing that pulling alongside would destroy the boat even in mellow seas, the stress of being the one that has to keep things safe, etc.)
Yes. Ken was certainly right NOT to go along side. But I thought it went pretty well. The ship did an excellent job shooting that messenger line aboard puma.

In the video, you can see the pilot ladder the ship had set in case they needed it. Certainly possible to climb that with a bit of adrenalin (althought these were quite calm sea conditions), but it would be a real trick coming along side safely, especially with a rig still up.

The video did seem to flatten size and depth and I believe the ship did not look at all as huge as it would have in real life.

This is quite similar to what we did in the S Atlantic to get our 20lts of motor oil, except the ship dropped the jerry jug into the sea and we picked it out of the sea.
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Old 24-11-2011, 13:56   #120
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It's not a criticism of your efforts merely, that unless you involve ships captains nothing is authoritative in any way. What's the point of training unless we have evaluated techniques and approaches. Otherwise all you are doing is a sort of warning..

As to NARC well it may be that some things may be need to looked at, as to the suitability of crews and boats.

I'm not at all anti training, I,m am a RYA instructor, though I don't teach much now. Training to be effective must be clear, understandable and relevant. Since such rescues are carried out in conditions that are impossible to recreate in a training situation, it becomes a kind of detached safety lecture. But it's not training as I understand it.

Dave
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