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Old 21-11-2011, 06:31   #91
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
You have fallen into the typical mindset that a rescue will follow some lines of thought you have preconcieved. THAT is where YOU as the rescuee can be in trouble. You wind up having to go with the flow as you are not directing the rescue. YOur radio may not be working, the wind may be howling so hard comms on your seventeen backup handhelds can't be understood...the language barrier may be tough as now you are doing something non-standard in the ships world...etc...etc.

My whole point is when something like this happens and you are being rescued by anyone except a trained/equipped rescue crew...flexibility on your part is the key...you might be expected to do anyhthing on a moments notice...because at that point the safety of the ship and his/her crew is the most important...YOU are expendable.
This is a great post. Language issues, the fact that ship's crews are typically not trained for this stuff, and the fact that you are not worth endangering the safety of the crew/ship, drives home the reality of this stuff.
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Old 21-11-2011, 06:34   #92
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This topic was covered in pretty good detail in the safety at sea class I attended as a requirement for the Newport-bermuda race
In the class they made the point that most rescuees are ignorant about the process.

I'd recommend everyone attend one of those classes, even if not a racer. They also go over the latest safety equipment.
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Old 21-11-2011, 07:00   #93
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
You have fallen into the typical mindset that a rescue will follow some lines of thought you have preconcieved. THAT is where YOU as the rescuee can be in trouble. You wind up having to go with the flow as you are not directing the rescue. YOur radio may not be working, the wind may be howling so hard comms on your seventeen backup handhelds can't be understood...the language barrier may be tough as now you are doing something non-standard in the ships world...etc...etc.

My whole point is when something like this happens and you are being rescued by anyone except a trained/equipped rescue crew...flexibility on your part is the key...you might be expected to do anyhthing on a moments notice...because at that point the safety of the ship and his/her crew is the most important...YOU are expendable.
I am quite well aware of the potential difficulties of dealing with a ship at sea, and language difficulties and radio problems. I have some decent amount of direct experience in dealing with all these issues.

We can certainly agree that flexibility is important in the sort of situations we are discussing. And in fact in my posts above I have brought up various plan B's and C's, for if plan A becomes unworkable (both for the basic procedure, and for the specific discussion on lifting) which I think should have at least been suggestive to you that I in fact have not "fallen into the typical mindset that a rescue will follow some lines of thought you have preconcieved."

And we can agree that the ship will not want (And I would not expect them to) to put their crew at any significant risk. The sailboat being rescued is of course the party at risk.

And we can agree that with a trained and equipped USCG crew I would probably do just what they tell me because they almost certainly know best (but I would sure still think it thru to see if I see any unexpected traps) - unless there is something quite distinctive with my vessel or crew - like perhaps just for example I had a blind crew member - then I would be responsible to try to make sure we are not using the vanilla rescue plan but rather one adapted to be as safe as possible for my crew.

But I DO NOT agree that the sailboat skipper should do any stupid thing he is told by a non-uscg ship. You seem to be suggesting that the sail boat skipper should just be passive and do whatever the ship tells him with no question or suggestions. I disagree.

The sailboat skipper will know his vessel and crew capability while the ship will most likely not. The sail boat skipper has a responsibility to try to achieve the best and safest procedure for his crew. Yes, this could be difficult in the stress of the moment and with different languages but it is the skippers responsibility to make his best effort if he thinks what's being suggested is manifestly unsafe for his crew. I believe you will find in practice that almost always the ships crew is quite willing to listen to the sail boat skipper and work with him to achieve the best possible outcome.

I will always remember the parting comment from a ukrainian radio operator on a ship after they helped us in the South Atlantic (they dropped us 20lts of motor oil after we had gotten seawater into our engine block): in broken English "welcome, no problem, we all seamen together"

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..but in most survival situations you often only have what you have on your back when things get ugly....
We can agree that of course once the rescue operation is in action things can get more messy with less time to react. But most of the 'rescues by ship' I am aware of were long developing and relatively slow processes with plenty of time to get out the right/best gear (like a climbing harness) IF the crew is thinking ahead about the various scenarios and possibilities.
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Old 21-11-2011, 07:14   #94
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Wow.

So I wonder what was going on with the crew to force him to make the call if he didn't want to/didn't feel the need to make it? Sounds pretty screwed up all the way 'round.

Well, as I said, HE was concerned about the safety of the boat, and hence, the safety of HIS crew. HE made the call to CG, knowing what the rules would be. His crew did as HE told them. He still tried to talk the CG into leaving the boat safe, but when they didn't agree, he had a plan B.

He was in control the entire way. He had a great and experienced crew. I can't really give more details without people figuring out which boat this was, because it was very specific circumstances.

I think it's looking "screwed up all the way 'round" because you're filling in the gaps you have, and doing it negatively. I think the guy was brilliant and I would sail with him anywhere.
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Old 21-11-2011, 07:16   #95
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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I disagree. You are prepared or you are not.

Of course there are degrees of prepaaration. One doesn't go out and buy an off-shore life raft to sail from Tampa to St. Pete.
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Old 21-11-2011, 07:20   #96
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

Quote - "But I DO NOT agree that the sailboat skipper should do any stupid thing he is told by a non-uscg ship. You seem to be suggesting that the sail boat skipper should just be passive and do whatever the ship tells him with no question or suggestions. I disagree."

I didn't say you had to .... but in the big scheme of things...If you are drowning and I toss you a rope...you have 2 choices...grab... or argue and that might be where I take my rope and go home.

Simplistic??? Maybe but I've seen it hundreds of times when the adrenaline is flowing. Yes...many ship rescues occur over long periods of time...many after the storm is generally past and the boat is still floating. I would assume many could have been repaired and sailed to land in the perfect world.

You can debate the merits of each and every recuue scenario and monday morning quarterback each and every rescue story. The bottom line is the essentials are usually there...but not the ability or equipment of either one or the other's party. Thus my point is it's better to have skills than equipment, brains/varied experience instead of proceedures, strong mucles/health instead of hope....and a boat load of luck.
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Old 21-11-2011, 07:25   #97
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Well, as I said, HE was concerned about the safety of the boat, and hence, the safety of HIS crew. HE made the call to CG, knowing what the rules would be. His crew did as HE told them. He still tried to talk the CG into leaving the boat safe, but when they didn't agree, he had a plan B.

He was in control the entire way. He had a great and experienced crew. I can't really give more details without people figuring out which boat this was, because it was very specific circumstances.

I think it's looking "screwed up all the way 'round" because you're filling in the gaps you have, and doing it negatively. I think the guy was brilliant and I would sail with him anywhere.
If you are talking about the situation where the guy was told to scuttle his boat ...where did this occur?? Farther than 12nm offshore???
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Old 21-11-2011, 07:31   #98
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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...I happen to be a member of the USSailing SASC (that Ron is also on), so I am somewhat familiar with all this. It is good stuff, well worth doing....
Very cool. I didn't know this.

I sent the link to the proposal draft to Ron T. and copied Gary J. So what are the next steps est?

Judging by all the comments I've gotten across the forums, the need seems evident.

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
The sailboat skipper will know his vessel and crew capability while the ship will most likely not. The sail boat skipper has a responsibility to try to achieve the best and safest procedure for his crew. Yes, this could be difficult in the stress of the moment and with different languages but it is the skippers responsibility to make his best effort if he thinks what's being suggested is manifestly unsafe for his crew. I believe you will find in practice that almost always the ships crew is quite willing to listen to the sail boat skipper and work with him to achieve the best possible outcome.
Bingo.
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Old 21-11-2011, 07:36   #99
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Quote - "But I DO NOT agree that the sailboat skipper should do any stupid thing he is told by a non-uscg ship. You seem to be suggesting that the sail boat skipper should just be passive and do whatever the ship tells him with no question or suggestions. I disagree."

I didn't say you had to .... but in the big scheme of things...If you are drowning and I toss you a rope...you have 2 choices...grab... or argue and that might be where I take my rope and go home.

Simplistic??? Maybe but I've seen it hundreds of times when the adrenaline is flowing. Yes...many ship rescues occur over long periods of time...many after the storm is generally past and the boat is still floating. I would assume many could have been repaired and sailed to land in the perfect world.

You can debate the merits of each and every recuue scenario and monday morning quarterback each and every rescue story. The bottom line is the essentials are usually there...but not the ability or equipment of either one or the other's party. Thus my point is it's better to have skills than equipment, brains/varied experience instead of proceedures, strong mucles/health instead of hope....and a boat load of luck.

When my life is on the line I absolutely will consider the quality of what I'm being told to do. Like the idiot who advised someone the other day they should move a boat without a rudder by towing (in a crowded marina) instead of a hip-tow. Clearly this man did not know about what he was suggesting.
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Old 21-11-2011, 07:38   #100
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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If you are talking about the situation where the guy was told to scuttle his boat ...where did this occur?? Farther than 12nm offshore???

As I said, I'm not filing in any more gaps. I do not have this man's permission to broadcast to the USCG how he got around their very serious instructions to scuttle the ship. As I said, more details could identify him.
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Old 21-11-2011, 08:48   #101
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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it's better to have skills than equipment, brains/varied experience instead of proceedures, strong mucles/health instead of hope....and a boat load of luck.
We completely agree here in all regards.
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Old 21-11-2011, 09:03   #102
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Very cool. I didn't know this.

I sent the link to the proposal draft to Ron T. and copied Gary J. So what are the next steps est?
This is a volunteer driven operation. If you want something to happen, the best and really only way, is to drive it yourself to make it happen. If you do the research and put together training material I am sure they would find you a spot in a SAS to try it out and see how valuable the audience thinks it. Otherwise you need to sign up a real champion who will do the work and follow it thru. DO NOT assume that you can just chuck the idea into the Committee with some notes and expect anything to happen.

The only caveat I would add is that the SAS curriculum is pretty full and rescues by ship are relatively rare for the US racing fleet (Which is the prime target audience for the SAS - Bermuda and Hawaii are required to attend, which makes the vast majority of the audience). So, the stuff would have to be really crisp and succinct - I would think you could do it with about 10 slides and a half dozen of those youtubes.

This is actually somewhat a more significant and frequent topic for offshore cruisers than for the race fleet. The SAS has for years thought about trying to get more involved with cruisers but for various reasons has not really accomplished it. They did run a 'suddenly alone' seminar targeted at training first mates what to do when the skipper goes MOB, but after a good start that seems to have fizzled out. I think the challenge is #1 because they are so used to a forced/required audience and it requires a different mindset to attract a voluntary audience, and #2 because almost all the committee members (except me I believe) are first and foremost racers who sort of look down upon cruisers as not really serious sailors (my honest impression and I don't mean to criticise anyone with it).

Chuck Hawley is the new chair (just in place this month) of the Committee and a terrific guy who would be very receptive to this sort of initiative. I would be happy to help in any way I can. If you follow any of my posts on safety you will know that I am a training and skills over equipment kind of guy and think that any knowledge and training that discourages people from getting off their boat except as a very very last resort is a good thing.
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Old 21-11-2011, 09:16   #103
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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any knowledge and training that discourages people from getting off their boat except as a very very last resort is a good thing.
To me that is the most important aspect of this training.
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Old 21-11-2011, 09:23   #104
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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When my life is on the line I absolutely will consider the quality of what I'm being told to do. Like the idiot who advised someone the other day they should move a boat without a rudder by towing (in a crowded marina) instead of a hip-tow. Clearly this man did not know about what he was suggesting.
As an assistance tower...I'm not sure who knows what they are talking about there. I do it all the time because not every vessel is suited for hip towing.
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Old 21-11-2011, 09:25   #105
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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As I said, I'm not filing in any more gaps. I do not have this man's permission to broadcast to the USCG how he got around their very serious instructions to scuttle the ship. As I said, more details could identify him.
I still doubt the USCG actually "ordered" him to scuttle his vessel...that would almost be a chargeable offense....and certainly not even enforceable outside of 12 miles to my knowledge.
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