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Old 20-11-2011, 06:08   #61
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

Apolllo 13 the movie was a “Hollywood” production beautifully played but like “perfect storm” these motion pictures were made to entertain. To me they show examples of risk management or try our luck, but were not safe. Missions to the moon did not last, shuttles did not last because the expendable component of risk management was too expensive “not safe”. In fact they were so much depending on luck that their authenticity is in doubt.
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Old 20-11-2011, 06:51   #62
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Apolllo 13 the movie was a “Hollywood” production beautifully played but like “perfect storm” these motion pictures were made to entertain. To me they show examples of risk management or try our luck, but were not safe. Missions to the moon did not last, shuttles did not last because the expendable component of risk management was too expensive “not safe”. In fact they were so much depending on luck that their authenticity is in doubt.
What they show me is EXACTLY what it's like going to sea.

In that not ALL possibilites are seen before you go and how if enterprising, you can overcome some/most/all of the problems...that only comes from a variety of experiences...not all even have to be on the water.

OK they are Hollywood but still full of factual accounts..unless you are one of those that think the moon landing was done on a green screen...

You sir...are just digging yourself deeper....
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Old 20-11-2011, 07:39   #63
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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9.1.2 (.1 .2) are assumptions and may not be true.
Good catch Chala. I fixed them both, as well as addressed similar language in 9.1.1.
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Old 20-11-2011, 07:54   #64
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

Nice job with the draft, Smackdaddy. Worthwhile effort. Not too many people think in advance what it might be like being rescued by a freighter.
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Old 20-11-2011, 08:54   #65
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

Smackdaddy - not positive without looking back in other posts...I did see you mention AMVER..but what about all the other pubs/organizations?

I know the US National SAR manual pretty well and just looked back through some of it...while it doesn't tell Merchies how to do it...it goes wel into why they have to and their tie in with AMVER.

How about other orgs?... like

IAMSAR - International Aeronautical and Maritime Search and Rescue Manual
The 2010 edition of the International Aeronautical and Maritime Search and Rescue (IAMSAR) has one amendment which became applicable in June 2011 (posted on SAR Manuals and Documents page). Instead of publishing future amendments, a complete new edition will be published every three years with the next edition to be in 2013. Limited extracts of the IAMSAR Manual can be made for operational and training purposes.

Or STCW?

While they may not have what you are looking for..ultimately they should be tied into what you are seeking
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Old 20-11-2011, 12:13   #66
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Smackdaddy - not positive without looking back in other posts...I did see you mention AMVER..but what about all the other pubs/organizations?

I know the US National SAR manual pretty well and just looked back through some of it...while it doesn't tell Merchies how to do it...it goes wel into why they have to and their tie in with AMVER.

How about other orgs?... like

IAMSAR - International Aeronautical and Maritime Search and Rescue Manual
The 2010 edition of the International Aeronautical and Maritime Search and Rescue (IAMSAR) has one amendment which became applicable in June 2011 (posted on SAR Manuals and Documents page). Instead of publishing future amendments, a complete new edition will be published every three years with the next edition to be in 2013. Limited extracts of the IAMSAR Manual can be made for operational and training purposes.

Or STCW?

While they may not have what you are looking for..ultimately they should be tied into what you are seeking
Agreed. They should definitely be tied in - but how?

The immediate focus is based on training the sailor - first and foremost. If we sailors understand more about the various methods of ship rescue, we can at least be much better participants in those methods. And, understanding the very real risks surrounding these methods, we will then be much more motivated to better assess the perceived level of risk aboard our vessel before calling for help.

To me, this is a much more feasible, and in the long run, much more beneficial approach than trying to implement protocols, specify equipment, and mandate techniques across the maritime industry.

So, if we started by first adding this material to the ISAF regs (from which it seems a lot of safety training is derived), I think we'd be well on our way. Then maybe this material moves on to SOLAS, IAMSAR, etc. for wider adoption. I don't know.

The bottom line is that I'm pretty ignorant on all this - these organizations, treaties, etc. It's very complicated, very political stuff. I just want to try to outline some basic content that fills a need and makes sense, then put it in the hands of people like Ron Trossbach to take it where it needs to go.
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Old 20-11-2011, 13:11   #67
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Agreed. They should definitely be tied in - but how?

The immediate focus is based on training the sailor - first and foremost. If we sailors understand more about the various methods of ship rescue, we can at least be much better participants in those methods. And, understanding the very real risks surrounding these methods, we will then be much more motivated to better assess the perceived level of risk aboard our vessel before calling for help.

To me, this is a much more feasible, and in the long run, much more beneficial approach than trying to implement protocols, specify equipment, and mandate techniques across the maritime industry.

So, if we started by first adding this material to the ISAF regs (from which it seems a lot of safety training is derived), I think we'd be well on our way. Then maybe this material moves on to SOLAS, IAMSAR, etc. for wider adoption. I don't know.

The bottom line is that I'm pretty ignorant on all this - these organizations, treaties, etc. It's very complicated, very political stuff. I just want to try to outline some basic content that fills a need and makes sense, then put it in the hands of people like Ron Trossbach to take it where it needs to go.
I guess I was trying to say.... without a quick glance or contact with these orgs, they may aleady have proceedures in place or are working on some...it would be counterproductive to reinvent the wheel or go off in a direction the trainers/overseerers of the Merchant community are already headed,
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Old 20-11-2011, 15:42   #68
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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I guess I was trying to say.... without a quick glance or contact with these orgs, they may aleady have proceedures in place or are working on some...it would be counterproductive to reinvent the wheel or go off in a direction the trainers/overseerers of the Merchant community are already headed,
Got it. So, does anyone with knowledge of IAMSAR/STCW have any input?

Someone mentioned on another forum that it would be very difficult to get something like this added to the STCW regulations due to the politics and timeframe for making changes.
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Old 20-11-2011, 18:42   #69
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

psneeld brings up some good points and his experience in rescue situations is far greater than mine, however, smackdaddy seems to be attempting to educate the average cruiser that spends years amassing data on weather, sailing routes, onboard supplies and safety gear while ignoring the 'what if' question of everything going to hell and having to rely on a commercial vessel of considerable size to pick them out of their predicament. I've been involved in three at sea rescues in bad weather in the PNW and quite a number in fine weather. Rough weather rescue work always appeared very dangerous to me (although I was untrained) and scared the hell out of the rescuee. But when there isn't anyone else around you try and rise to the occasion.
I'm still unsure how you would expand the training module to include foreign flagged vessels of which there are many more out there than US flgged.
This is a great thread and I applaude smackdaddy for taking the iniative on the subject... my 2 cents worth... Capt Phil
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Old 20-11-2011, 18:55   #70
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

Well...I guess the one piece of universal gear that would apply in any life or death situation would be an inflatable pfd with built in harness. No matter how the rescue goes down...when all else fails a line attached to the d rings can be used to haul you aboard anything.

The trickiest part is always a vessel to vessel transfer in high seas...lots of motion equals the greatest threat to vessels and pax. Even rescue helos will request pax to enter the water to make hoisting safer at times.

But realistically...other than cable hoisting from an onboard crane, climbing a cargo net, leaping to a boarding ladder or being pulled into a lifeboat/launch...I can't think of any other methods I've heard a big merchie using.... other than hoisting the whole vessel aboard but that was when the seas had abated enough and the sailing vessel was pretty well disabled.

So realistically the best thing a sailor can do to prepare is have a harness and be physically fit enough to haul yer butt onto/up something godawful in raging seas. Past that...you are going to do what you are told to do by the ships captain and how he directs the rescue.
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Old 20-11-2011, 19:38   #71
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

I totally agree that a pfd with a harness is essential whenever you are on the deck in high seas or in rough weather but having a carabiner with a sprung gate attached to it would also be an essential IMO since it is a lot easier to clip onto the rescue line.
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Old 20-11-2011, 19:43   #72
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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I totally agree that a pfd with a harness is essential whenever you are on the deck in high seas or in rough weather but having a carabiner with a sprung gate attached to it would also be an essential IMO since it is a lot easier to clip onto the rescue line.
Assuming there is something (loop) to clip it on...

I prefer knowing how to tie a bowline, one handed, in the dark under pressure..around your waist is good....even better if you can do it upside down underwater..

If you want to survive at sea or be rescued...better to know skills than own equipment that can fail/fail you in a heatbeat.
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Old 20-11-2011, 19:48   #73
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Assuming there is something (loop) to clip it on...

I prefer knowing how to tie a bowline, one handed, in the dark under pressure..around your waist is good....even better if you can do it upside down underwater..

If you want to survive at sea or be rescued...better to know skills than own equipment that can fail/fail you in a heatbeat.
Of course but even the best trained skill can be forgotten when you are facing death.
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Old 20-11-2011, 19:52   #74
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Seems a lot of faith is being put in equipment but... the best thing you can do is build your upper body strength and stamina... because believe you me thats whats gonna count when the chips are down... not something you picked up in West Marine...
Last month a boat went down 80 miles W of Porto... the raft was launched and he got in but when rescue arrived in a few hours he was dead... to much for a reasonably fit 70yr old singlehander...
So get training guys... just equipment aint enough..
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Old 20-11-2011, 19:54   #75
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared ?

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Well...I guess the one piece of universal gear that would apply in any life or death situation would be an inflatable pfd with built in harness. No matter how the rescue goes down...when all else fails a line attached to the d rings can be used to haul you aboard anything.
I would not really like to be lifted by any of the sailing harness/pfds I own. If you are planning that you damn well better have really good crotch straps (not many do) and even then it would be damn uncomfortable. I also carry a climbing harness. I would much much rather be lifted in that - its purpose designed and build for almost exactly that purpose - and much much more comfortable, and I think safer - the straps and buckles are much more heavy duty than the straps and buckles on the average pfd.
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