Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-08-2013, 18:12   #496
Registered User
 
endoftheroad's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Key West
Boat: Westsail 32 and Herreshoff 28
Posts: 1,159
Our grandparents wouldn't have noticed much of a problem in the op's shoes.

No eletricity onboard.
No ssb to fall short of power
No refrigeration to take away the food source
No plotter or gps power shortage
No engine to fail
and No options to radio a commerial ship to bail them out.

They would have a torn sail to deal with and the lack of a chart to deal with.

Seems to me they would have limped to shore or carried on with their voyage.

What a shame.
__________________

__________________
endoftheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 18:14   #497
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,831
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
The reef cut isn't even shown on the charts for the area. The cruising guide makes mention of them with a hand sketch and an photo of the ranges, along with a position offshore to begin your approach.

However Xcalak is on the chart and the high range is visible for quite a distance. I wouldn't call this a channel, it's just a gap in the reef.
Which is pretty common...you go to the ends of the earth cruising and you are often glad that the locals have put in buoys, poles and/or ranges to get you safely in...they aren't even in cruising guides sometimes, let alone charts....course it takes some big ones to trust homemade ranges through a reef!!!!
__________________

__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 18:27   #498
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
The reef cut isn't even shown on the charts for the area. The cruising guide makes mention of them with a hand sketch and an photo of the ranges, along with a position offshore to begin your approach.

However Xcalak is on the chart and the high range is visible for quite a distance. I wouldn't call this a channel, it's just a gap in the reef.

I thought that was what was being said. I would not want to negotiate that without a dependable motor. I'm pretty sure I'd be willing to choose a secondary destination, however.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 19:00   #499
Senior Cruiser
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 5,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post

I thought that was what was being said. I would not want to negotiate that without a dependable motor. I'm pretty sure I'd be willing to choose a secondary destination, however.
Having been in and out a few times, I'd have no problem sailing into it. Out is another story. But if desperate there are enough locals with pangas in and out on a regular basis that could help.
__________________
Sailmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2013, 09:19   #500
o_q
Registered User
 
o_q's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 291
Re: Regret to inform have lost my boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v 'Faith' View Post
That is terrible!

Here, maybe this will help,... (troll spray image here)
I'm offended! Not all MacGregor owners are trolls.
__________________
o_q is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 18:07   #501
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
It's called condensation. Your fuel tank is vented, this lets in air, air contains moisture, which condenses on your tank walls, which builds up in the bottom of the tank. It totally just happens.
It took me forever to read this whole thread. But.......

I read several articles of condensation tests in the past. A couple I have posted about. I cannot locate them in searches. But I have been spending a lot of time just getting through this thread.

Anyway. From all I have read, condensation produces very little water. Very little. Large amounts are always traced to something else.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 18:16   #502
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
Some while back I posted that I thought that the OP was "unprepared", and unsurprisingly some have felt this was unfair, and that I was blaming the victim. Simply not true. Without further knowledge, I take the OP to be a nice, intelligent person who shares our dream of cruising. When he left I assume that he thought he was prepared, or otherwise he wouldn't have left. And yes, we are all learning, all of the time, if we have any hope of mastering this craft, and we have all made, and will continue to make, mistakes. A certain amount of humility is needed for anyone who goes to sea. In the cold light of day it is clear to all who will see that he was not prepared. He was not prepared to deal with water in the diesel, operating the boat without the engine, and navigating without the 12V system. That doesn't make him a bad guy, but it does call into question his judgement of his own preparedness for cruising. It is his lack of humility that is the question here, and not of those who would comment about his mistakes.

Let's look at this another way. My brother flies a Cessna, and a few years back he decided to re-qualify for his lapsed instrument rating. He made a couple of mistakes but the examiner passed him anyway. He then went back to his old instructor, explained the situation, and asked for his candid advice. He was told that the instructor would not have passed him and that he should stick to visual flying until he brought his instrument skills back up to snuff. Now my brother is not a humble man; in fact he is very proud and some might even say arrogant, so I was surprised that he had told his instructor of his mistakes. His comment to me was that "a cockpit is too small a space for a big ego". Amen. No matter how proud we are (and a lot of the folks here are very proud indeed) we have an obligation to be brutally honest in assessing our capabilities. Unlike flying there is no well-defined body of knowledge, and no definitive exam, that will assure our competence. The RYA Yachtmaster comes closest, if you are prepared to spend more than half a year immersed in full-time training. But for most of us it is a matter of struggling to put our own program together. And without expert guidance that means there is a lot of not knowing what we don't know. And filling those holes is a lot of what this forum is about. Without trying to define what is the minimum expertise required to go cruising, it seems clear that the OP didn't have it. I hope he will buy another boat and continue pursuing his dream, but I also hope he will learn from this that he needs to acquire more skills.



Greg
And now I wonder if I should give up my dream too. I will be long dead before I learn as much as some of those here............Maybe soon dead if I "take it on".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
An extremely expensive way to fix a sail.

I always have a litre can of Contact Cement on the boat and use that for sail repairs.

Works a treat.


Last tin I bought was aprox $10 and still half full... bought 3 years ago :)
Mark, all the contact cement I have ever bought goes bad (hardens) in a short while after the can/bottle is opened. Is it the brand? Or do you handle it like refrigerated mayonnaise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
I'm surprised any of you aren't fully clued in to the condensation issue, but in retrospect it makes sense. I doubt you have much concern with condensation in YOUR location! But I assure you, it is a very well known and sometimes severe problem in environments like mine. This is why a stored boat should have the tanks topped up, because moisture condensation is about square footage of exposed interior tank wall. Think about it, metal tank wall is colder than it's surrounding air, particularly if it touches the hull below the waterline. This causes perfect conditions for condensation on the inner tank wall. I have seen very large amounts of water (several gallons or more) condense in large steel tanks in only a couple of years around here. Probably not a problem for those who live in very dry areas though.
I could easily stand corrected but don't remember where the tests I read about were done. One was Practical Sailor I think. They test in Annapolis and Sarasota I think.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 18:29   #503
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,310
Images: 75
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"i think here is a clue as to what really happened,
a classic mistake when filling from cans,looks like the op dumped a whole can of fresh water by mistake into his fuel tank"
Oh, that's a baseless and cruel accusation. Who on earth would mistake the container prominently labelled "potable water only" for a same-color container labelled or color coded for "diesel" or other fuels? And who gets water-white diesel, so they wouldn't notice the difference while pouring?
We've no reason to think he stowed all liquids in scavenged detergent bottles and transfered them in the pitch of night. On the other hand, a leaky deck fitting, a loose cap, a bad o-ring, can sneak up on anyone who is less than totally vigilant.

Wrong-
Since neither of you put any subjective context on Gorilla tape, it is meaningless to hear you call it "good". There's a half billion people who call McBurgers "good" but ask them how it compares to a proper home made or pub burger, and then you get context. Gorilla tape? Sure, they've convinced me they put their brand on good stuff. Gaffers' tape has always been pretty much brandless. And then there's 3M, who also make "clear duct tape". No context, just a subjective like? Eh, doesn't say much for it.
having put in excess of 45000 liters of deisel through my tanks over 13 years,and fuelling in many 3rd world countries,i have probably in total had to drain off less than a liter of water from my tanks in total over all those years,and 60,000 miles of cruising.

the op admitted that he may have confused a jug of fresh water for diesel when filling his tank......read the ops 2nd account on page 3 of the thread
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 19:40   #504
Registered User
 
CarinaPDX's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Boat: 31' Cape George Cutter
Posts: 1,673
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

I have to agree that condensation from reasonably full tanks should not generally be an issue. OTOH water does seem to get into fuel before you buy it in some locations, including here in the Pacific Northwest, and that may be from condensation up the line. I once knew the owners of a new fishing boat that launched here in Portland and went to a fuel dock to fill the new tanks. After some problems they took a sample of the fuel to a lab, which reported 6% water emulsified in the diesel. Nice. It is best to buy from the careful retailers that have Racor filters on the pumps, but that is not always possible. After all, there is good reason to not want to know that one is getting paid diesel prices for water, and to not want to wrangle with the supplier as to source.

My own water problems are a result of the fuel tank vents mounted on the topsides, where seawater can sometimes get sucked in during heavy going. They are now removed and will be relocated where that will not be possible.

As for the quantity of knowledge needed to go cruising, that is always a tough one. Clearly you don't need to know as much as those who have been cruising for years, as you will learn a lot as you go. OTOH if you have just bought the boat and have no cruising experience or training then don't count on leaving the same year. Some people spend too much time preparing and unnecessarily delay their departure, and others with supreme confidence leave within months woefully unprepared. How to get it right? One of the best ways is to get to know other cruisers and crew whenever possible, which should provide both some experience on which to base your own judgement and some evaluations from people who have already been out cruising and see you handle it. I appreciate that this is not a particularly satisfying answer...

Greg
__________________
CarinaPDX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 19:44   #505
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Paper Tiger 14 foot, Gemini 105MC 34 foot Catamaran Hull no 825
Posts: 1,616
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

After 30 years of having mobile welders, and tractors sitting out in the weather,

I have never had water problems with my diesels. Occasionally, I would empty the bowls that had water and sediment in them.

But never enough to ever stop the motors,

Water in my fuel came from the supplier, Which was easy to get rid of, and was not in a great quantity, Maybe a cup full,

But I have watched people put water and petrol in diesel motors, Inadvertently from containers,

Mobile diesel welders really go into over drive with petrol, not for long, as they shut down with seized pistons very quickly,

Diesel in cans, suck in moisture, thru the seam under the cap, with the expansion and compression from the weather being hot and cold,

Pour your diesel into your tank with a cloth over the end of the pourer, Keeps the crap and water out of your tank,

Its a bit slower pouring it in, But you do have clean fuel at all times,

And you can see if you have a lot of water immediately, Its sitting in the rag, So empty the water out of your container first,

If its from the pump, put it in a container first, then into your tank when you have separated the water from it,

A water separator is a must in the line, Two preferably, And a non return valve in the feed line,

Fill through a rag on the filler, water separator in the line,
you will never have bad fuel problems,

Works for me, My machinery has to go, first time every time, 100% reliability at all times,

If it takes more than four revs to start the motor, Its unreliable to me, It gets fixed,

-4C my diesel flicks over immediately, Thats the way I like it, Thats the way I maintain my vehicles, Motors, Etc,

Not particular on the paint work, It does not earn me a living, Reliability, earnt me a living,

It must go and stop, Reliably,

Ask around first, People will tell you who sells dirty fuel, So dont buy it there,
__________________
Mr B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 20:01   #506
Registered User
 
Delfin's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Anacortes, WA
Boat: 55' Romsdal
Posts: 1,390
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
And now I wonder if I should give up my dream too. I will be long dead before I learn as much as some of those here............Maybe soon dead if I "take it on".


Oh, it's not so complicated you can't learn the essentials pretty quickly. Use the OP as an object lesson and take this to heart. Do NOT step off a perfectly serviceable sailboat simply because you can't find another set of D batteries to power whatever. Sail it instead to where ever you'd like to be.

Simple, really. After that, it's all just perfecting technique, but if you can't quite get your arms around the fact that you shouldn't abandon your vessel unless it is really incapacitated and your life is at risk unless you step off, then I suggest you find another hobby.
__________________
http://delfin.talkspot.com
When stupidity is a sufficient explanation, there is no need to appeal to another cause.
- Ulmann's Razor
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 20:17   #507
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hudson Valley N.Y.
Boat: contessa 32
Posts: 826
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Re condensation : I suspect Therapy is correct that condensation is not the major culprit
but rather other sources for water in fuel ,esp. the fuel cap;I keep a small tube of vaseline nearby my filler cap and EVERY time that cap is unscrewed the threads get a new dollop of vaseline. No problems now after many in the past.
Re Gorilla tape:This stuff is way tougher the any tape I have ever tried;don't know if it will hold well on a Dacron sail but if it fails it will be the adhesive not the tape itself. Put it on both sides of the tear ,sew through it and I'll wager that the mend will outlast the sail itself.

FWIW: Does any one here believe that the sail was really "torn" and he did not notice in the calm condition he described?
So surely the stiching had chaffed though, an even easier repair.
The OP has given us very few data points over his voyage and left us with the task of filling in huge gaps in the story line that require speculation from afar. A situation that is not conducive to ferreting out the truth and not fair to us or himself....he owes us more.
Is this not a region of the Easterly trades? Any wreck would have made landfall in short order and with an intact main he had choices along the entire coast. Those hopefuls who wish to cruise near or far would be well advised to give it their all to reach their chosen destination since failure leaves lingering doubt, while overcoming adversity with ultimate success by limping into port on ones own devices will bring reward beyond measure.
I hope the OP will recover from his losses but those lingering doubts may mean his sailing days are over.
__________________
mrohr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 03:02   #508
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,936
Images: 1
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

I'll admit I've only read the first half of this thread. First my condolences to the OP for losing his boat. No matter why - it has got to be a trauma. I hope it never happens to me.

Multiple cleaning of fuel filters while at sea is not a task I would want to undertake. So I'll give a bit of applause for that.

Ok here's the critique. He notes his goal is to sail into the south pacific. Solo. Whilst I certainly can applaud all those who "just do it", if we're going to have a little sanity, we would prepare for several weeks of single-handing, standing watch all the time (with only short breaks for napping). Even if he was not a experienced sailor, he should have been prepared for exhaustion.

Certainly events cascade and eventually the build-up of issues will lead most (but not all) to feel they are insurmountable.

Nowhere did I read he was in a storm, so the situation, as I see it, was not immediately life-threatening. Rather, the issue was a potential future lift-threat, when and if the boat drifted off to sea, with him in it.

I consider myself a moderately accomplished sailor, and I would have no problems sailing a boat with only the mainsail, which in this case was undamaged. Certainly the lack of an engine is an issue when entering harbor, but he did note he had a dinghy and motor. Why not sail the boat as close as he was comfortable with, drop the hook and take the dinghy the rest of the way in and get a tow?

So much for second guessing, I hope I would have reacted differently.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 03:32   #509
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
And now I wonder if I should give up my dream too. I will be long dead before I learn as much as some of those here............Maybe soon dead if I "take it on".
The good news with boats is yer get a lot of thinking time!, including when going places.........how each uses that time is a personal choice , but most folks enjoy running through "what if's" (no internet required!)....when you identify something that would be major PITA (if not a deal breaker) for "You" then the "answer" is simply to work out a plan B (and C?!) in advance. Losing GPS a major disaster? In that case want to ensure that have electric - how to do that? Well, that is your choices (AA batteries!? / Solar? / Generator? / be comfortable with DR, and log your position regularly - just in case? / have a plan B as a destination? / knowing how your electric works so can trouble shoot it?)..........don't need all of those (probably a few more), but the more the merrier and some are Plan B for other scenarios as well so get to kill 2 birds with one stone .

in OP's case even a little bit of forethought (about what for him would be a major problem) would have gone a long way on prevention of his problems (rig a preventer) and even cure (needle and thread and some AA batteries for a GPS, even at the price of getting a 2nd handheld cheapy GPS - but for that would need to know what the numbers meant , and have a chart to plot them on - and know how to do that).

Of course can go a squillion miles without needing a Plan B for OP's scenario, and can't cover everything.........but nice to have a Plan B ready to go........
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 04:55   #510
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,936
Images: 1
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
What I'm trying to get at is still being missed. I understand that the whole point of range markers is to have a visual guide. Really, that's pretty basic.

However, if they are not accurately placed ON THE CHART, one won't know where to look at them. In some places, there's an awful lot of clutter on shore, and it really helps to know where you should expect to see something.

This is why I'm asking -- are the range markers accurately plotted on the PAPER chart?
Raku

Most countries, and I'm pretty sure the US, publish a weekly "Notice to Mariners". I get mine sent via e-mail every monday morning. In these notices will be all the changes of buoys, signals, range marks, military exercises etc etc that have been made during the past week.

As boatman mentioned, it is your responsibility as a skipper to keep your charts (be they electronic or paper) up to date.

Failure to do so constitutes dereliction of your duty - not to mention bad seamanship.

So if you have kept your charts up-to-date the range marks on the chart will match the range marks i reality.

Most good map chandlers will be happy to sell you an updated (days date) chart. Here in Copenhagen, Weilbach, the really big chart chandler has people employed who sit and do nothing all day but amend charts from all over the world based the latest "Notices to Mariners"

I know someone is going to say Why? In the US most charts are print on demand meaning the updates have been made in the file. Try buying a PRint on demand of some of the lesser visited areas of the world.

By the way, whilst range marks sometimes are moved, it is rare that they are moved so far as to be unfindable.
__________________

__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Honduras, lost, paracelle

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Refurbing / Refitting an Older boat - Advice and Ideas David_Old_Jersey Construction, Maintenance & Refit 529 02-06-2015 18:21
For Sale or Trade: 565+ Nautical E-Books Crimea Cruiser Classifieds Archive 10 23-06-2013 21:33
A Good Safe Passage Maker capta Monohull Sailboats 43 26-11-2012 23:14
Differences Between Ground, Apparent, and True Wind Direction twistedtree Navigation 92 26-12-2011 14:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.