Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-08-2013, 12:33   #466
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
I appreciate the constructive posts here. But I have to say, the OP knows what he did wrong and what he did right. Our little inputs are great, but these nuggets of wisdom is for the the ones who have yet to be thrown into that situation. I guaranty you, he has replayed and reworked the whole trip in his mind a million times by now, and knows better than anyone here what to do next time. Experience
Just saying.

I hope he is able to get his boat afloat and move on from this experience.

Yes, unfortunately for him it is about the rest of us now. I do really feel for the OP. Even if *we* did not encourage him to take an ill-prepared trip, I know that others have done that with me. Fortunately for me (and my boat) I didn't do it.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 12:39   #467
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
They're on the paper charts, that are off datum, the admiralty survey is old. The area cruising guide is accurate though.

What does this mean -- "They're on the paper charts, that are off datum..."

I do use my chart plotter, but not without studying the paper charts first, and not exclusively at all -- and after seeing the Florida Cruising Guide I would really hope there was such a thing for any place I went.

It might just me, because I'm a "big picture" person, but I always tell newer sailors to get the paper charts and study them. It really saved my cookies one day, because I knew where we were and just how far the "lee shore" (very shallow water) extended at that particular spot. I didn't have a chart plotter at the time, but I know that the chart plotter does not give you the big picture.

I *especially* would not want to depend on a chart plotter in difficult circumstances even if power supply wasn't a problem -- for that reason.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 12:48   #468
Moderator
 
Paul Elliott's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,880
Images: 4
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

"Off datum" means that the latitude/longitude shown on the paper chart is not exactly correct. The electronic chart will show the channel, rock, lighthouse, etc, as being located at the published lat/lon, when in fact, they are at a different location. This can be due to inaccuracies in the original survey, or to differences in the GPS datum (mathematical model of the Earth's surface). The original surveys, some done by Captain Cook, are usually pretty accurate as far as latitude, but the longitude can be up to a couple of miles off.

The paper charts are still very useful, but you can't use GPS to orient them. You need to use visual landmarks or radar.
__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
Paul Elliott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 13:45   #469
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,461
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Well, since the discussion was relative to range marks, it does not matter if the datum registration is correct or not. One follows the range as observed by eyeball, not by what is on chart or VDU. Actually, once withing sight of the range markers no chart of any sort is required to get through a pass. Once through the pass, the chart again becomes useful and datum errors important if further piloting is needed.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:08   #470
Registered User
 
Wrong's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,702
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

"Wrong-
Since neither of you put any subjective context on Gorilla tape, it is meaningless to hear you call it "good". There's a half billion people who call McBurgers "good" but ask them how it compares to a proper home made or pub burger, and then you get context. Gorilla tape? Sure, they've convinced me they put their brand on good stuff. Gaffers' tape has always been pretty much brandless. And then there's 3M, who also make "clear duct tape". No context, just a subjective like? Eh, doesn't say much for it.[/QUOTE]"

Makes no difference to me if you use Gorilla tape or not. You need more contextual information use your favourite search engine. Not here to satisfy you standards, just to share my experience. Take what I say at face value or not. Rely only on what you call contextual information and ignore mine and others first hand experience using the tape if you want. Don't care what you think or do.
__________________
Wrong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:09   #471
Registered User
 
nimblemotors's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sacramento, California
Boat: Solar 40ft Cat :)
Posts: 1,557
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
...what his abilities were at this stage...
'Abilities' are not so much an issue. Running out of electrical power, being told no rescue is possible, USCG tells you to abandon ship, you have the only help available right there,
and then he leaves you alone to fend for yourself..he got scared and changed his mind and did what the USCG advised him to. So then I assume Eric and others think the USCG is wrong too? Their advice was bad? Better safe than sorry...or dead.

The problem as I see it was lack of backups. The engine was the only source for electrical power.
__________________
JackB
MiniMPPT Solar Controller
nimblemotors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:20   #472
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
"Off datum" means that the latitude/longitude shown on the paper chart is not exactly correct. The electronic chart will show the channel, rock, lighthouse, etc, as being located at the published lat/lon, when in fact, they are at a different location. This can be due to inaccuracies in the original survey, or to differences in the GPS datum (mathematical model of the Earth's surface). The original surveys, some done by Captain Cook, are usually pretty accurate as far as latitude, but the longitude can be up to a couple of miles off.

The paper charts are still very useful, but you can't use GPS to orient them. You need to use visual landmarks or radar.

Yes, I know you can't use GPS to interpret your paper charts.

I use the paper charts to interpret the GPS. When in doubt I go back to the paper chart.

So what I was really asking was if the PAPER chart has the range markers accurately placed. If it does, no problems. If the paper chart is wrong then it's going to be a lot trickier for a newer sailor.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:23   #473
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, since the discussion was relative to range marks, it does not matter if the datum registration is correct or not. One follows the range as observed by eyeball, not by what is on chart or VDU. Actually, once withing sight of the range markers no chart of any sort is required to get through a pass. Once through the pass, the chart again becomes useful and datum errors important if further piloting is needed.

Cheers,

Jim

What I'm trying to get at is still being missed. I understand that the whole point of range markers is to have a visual guide. Really, that's pretty basic.

However, if they are not accurately placed ON THE CHART, one won't know where to look at them. In some places, there's an awful lot of clutter on shore, and it really helps to know where you should expect to see something.

This is why I'm asking -- are the range markers accurately plotted on the PAPER chart?
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:25   #474
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,831
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Well, since the discussion was relative to range marks, it does not matter if the datum registration is correct or not. One follows the range as observed by eyeball, not by what is on chart or VDU. Actually, once withing sight of the range markers no chart of any sort is required to get through a pass. Once through the pass, the chart again becomes useful and datum errors important if further piloting is needed.

Cheers,

Jim
Thought I repost it for people who don't get ranges.....
__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:26   #475
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,210
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Just about all the electronic charts are copies of the paper ones... no ones been out there to make new surveys just for Garmin etc...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:37   #476
Registered User
 
CarinaPDX's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Boat: 31' Cape George Cutter
Posts: 1,676
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
In addition, it's an abandoned boat. "The locals" (I don't think any of us would fly in to do it) are entitled to salvage what they can.
I'm sorry for going pack a couple of pages, but I just couldn't let this stand. It is flat out wrong, and we all need to know it. An abandoned, wrecked, or sunk boat is still owned, either by the owner at time of loss or his/her insurance company if the claim was paid. (Some countries/states lay claim to sunken vessels as well, which is nothing less than legalized theft, but that is another matter.) Anyone removing anything from a wreck for their own benefit is nothing less than a thief.

On the often misunderstood concept of salvage, a salvor is one who preserves the value of the ship/cargo FOR THE OWNER, and is then entitled to salvage fees based on the value preserved and the effort, cost, and risk involved in that salvage. If agreement can't be reached on that amount ultimately the claim will be decided by an admiralty court (assuming that Lloyd's arbitration hasn't been agreed). So if a fishing boat had come out from Roatan and towed Serenity to harbor he would have been entitled to salvage, not just for labor, unless something else had been agreed. If the abandoned boat had been encountered and towed to port and protected from looters, the one who did that could claim salvage. And with the boat on the reef, anyone removing valuables and delivering them to the owner is entitled to salvage. The rest are just thieves, pure and simple. Through the centuries thieves have often hidden behind a claim of salvage - let's not continue that.

Greg
__________________
CarinaPDX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:39   #477
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Just about all the electronic charts are copies of the paper ones... no ones been out there to make new surveys just for Garmin etc...
Almost all charts are electronic and the paper charts are just print outs of those electronic charts. It's only some 3rd world stuff that is still in paper source.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:43   #478
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,831
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
I'm sorry for going pack a couple of pages, but I just couldn't let this stand. It is flat out wrong, and we all need to know it. An abandoned, wrecked, or sunk boat is still owned, either by the owner at time of loss or his/her insurance company if the claim was paid. (Some countries/states lay claim to sunken vessels as well, which is nothing less than legalized theft, but that is another matter.) Anyone removing anything from a wreck for their own benefit is nothing less than a thief.

On the often misunderstood concept of salvage, a salvor is one who preserves the value of the ship/cargo FOR THE OWNER, and is then entitled to salvage fees based on the value preserved and the effort, cost, and risk involved in that salvage. If agreement can't be reached on that amount ultimately the claim will be decided by an admiralty court (assuming that Lloyd's arbitration hasn't been agreed). So if a fishing boat had come out from Roatan and towed Serenity to harbor he would have been entitled to salvage, not just for labor, unless something else had been agreed. If the abandoned boat had been encountered and towed to port and protected from looters, the one who did that could claim salvage. And with the boat on the reef, anyone removing valuables and delivering them to the owner is entitled to salvage. The rest are just thieves, pure and simple. Through the centuries thieves have often hidden behind a claim of salvage - let's not continue that.

Greg
good post......in the business and it's a really misunderstood concept. Leaving a vessel for rescue isn't even abandonment...not till the owner says it's abandoned or a maritime court declares it abandoned.
__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:44   #479
Registered User
 
CarinaPDX's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Boat: 31' Cape George Cutter
Posts: 1,676
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

The excellent Startron recommended earlier dissolves algae, thus keeping things liquid and flowing. It is the use of biocide that is the problem: put it in your tank and the algae will all die and sink to the bottom, forming a nasty sludge (which is also corrosive). Simply put: don't use biocide.

On the range issue, ranges are often relocated in order to indicate the current channel. ALL charts, paper or electronic, must only be used for locating the range. The range itself must be trusted, even if it has been moved since the chart production.

Greg
__________________
CarinaPDX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 14:50   #480
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,461
Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
I'm sorry for going pack a couple of pages, but I just couldn't let this stand. It is flat out wrong, and we all need to know it. An abandoned, wrecked, or sunk boat is still owned, either by the owner at time of loss or his/her insurance company if the claim was paid. (Some countries/states lay claim to sunken vessels as well, which is nothing less than legalized theft, but that is another matter.) Anyone removing anything from a wreck for their own benefit is nothing less than a thief.

On the often misunderstood concept of salvage, a salvor is one who preserves the value of the ship/cargo FOR THE OWNER, and is then entitled to salvage fees based on the value preserved and the effort, cost, and risk involved in that salvage. If agreement can't be reached on that amount ultimately the claim will be decided by an admiralty court (assuming that Lloyd's arbitration hasn't been agreed). So if a fishing boat had come out from Roatan and towed Serenity to harbor he would have been entitled to salvage, not just for labor, unless something else had been agreed. If the abandoned boat had been encountered and towed to port and protected from looters, the one who did that could claim salvage. And with the boat on the reef, anyone removing valuables and delivering them to the owner is entitled to salvage. The rest are just thieves, pure and simple. Through the centuries thieves have often hidden behind a claim of salvage - let's not continue that.

Greg
Greg, thank you for this post. I was going to attempt the same thoughts, but you have done it better than I would have.

Well done!

Jim
__________________

__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Honduras, lost, paracelle

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Refurbing / Refitting an Older boat - Advice and Ideas David_Old_Jersey Construction, Maintenance & Refit 529 02-06-2015 18:21
For Sale or Trade: 565+ Nautical E-Books Crimea Cruiser Classifieds Archive 10 23-06-2013 21:33
A Good Safe Passage Maker capta Monohull Sailboats 43 26-11-2012 23:14
Differences Between Ground, Apparent, and True Wind Direction twistedtree Navigation 92 26-12-2011 14:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.