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Old 31-07-2013, 20:19   #181
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

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Either you just proved it or you have a good sense of humor....
Or both.
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Old 31-07-2013, 20:21   #182
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pirate Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
Baloney. All posts on the internet are about ego and being right.
For others...
its about Ego and being Lucky...
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Old 31-07-2013, 20:25   #183
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
What does all that have to do with the point of abandoning ship because of a headsail issue?

I don't care what POS boat someone owns....not being able to sail a 180 degree arc without a headsail should be a no brainer....If you can fix it great...but why was the point ever brought up..it's just not germane in my way of thinking...which is NOT abandoning a sail boat because one sail is ripped and less than 150 miles to go worst case scenario...I would probably make landfall long before I hand sewed a jib at sea....

It sounds like tunnel vision brought about by anxiety...but like I said...I'm not holding an accident investigation... I just wanted to now why ANYONE IN THE WORLD would be worried about the headsail with less than 150 miles to go and a 180 degree choice of landfalls.
it was my understanding that more was going on than a ripped headsail. Dead engine and I don't recall other concerns. But then I have a different perspective, because if I had been just a little younger when I started to sail, it could have been me biting off way more than I could chew. I've been known to do it before.
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Old 31-07-2013, 20:27   #184
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

"this place is loaded with people looking to drop the hammer on anyone less prepared than they."

This is true. It's also true that the story didn't quite make sense. but it was very clear to me that English was not his first language and that he was struggling to tell the story. I be he spent hours on his post and did the very best he could.
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Old 31-07-2013, 20:35   #185
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Let me start out by giving my sympathies to the OP for the horrendous experience he went through, and continues to go through (as the Mexican authorities will no doubt hold him responsible for removing his vessel at a minimum). I also thank him for sharing his experiences for others to learn. I think most of us do have a feeling of "there but for the grace of god go I": we all made a lot of mistakes along the way to acquiring experience and knowledge.

That said, if this thread were to only be about sympathizing with the OP about his loss then it wouldn't do justice to this forum and its members (and lurkers). Isn't the purpose of this forum to share knowledge? And when a boat is lost, isn't it appropriate to review critically the events that lead up to the loss? It should not come as a surprise to anyone, least of all the OP, that mistakes were made. Saying so, and discussing those mistakes, shouldn't be interpreted as kicking the OP when he is down (nor should we be kicking the OP in fact). I hope he will accept the comments here as well-intentioned efforts to educate others, even if not always phrased in the kindest words. And those who point out those mistakes should certainly be spared the abuse of other posters.

I think that aside from the specific mistakes made here, there is a larger question of adequacy of preparation by new cruisers (which may or may not apply to this particular case). Simply put, there are a lot of folks who have acquired a boat and are going cruising now, with no intention of investing the time and effort to prepare themselves and their boat for the rigors and risks of ocean cruising. We live in a world of instant gratification, and woe be to anyone who suggests that a new owner needs to wait, gain local experience, and prepare before making their cruising dreams come true. I hope that the OP's experiences both serve as a learning opportunity for all of us, but more importantly also as a warning for those who would happily slip the lines before doing their homework.

I'll slip into my armor now...

Greg
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Old 31-07-2013, 20:45   #186
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Just remember...most criticism on the internet really isn't personal...it's about the facts or decisions or whatever...after about 3 posts beyond the guts spilling...it's more about "theory" or 'personal experiences" than it was about the OP.

Like I posted just a few minutes ago...if you want to educate...get a blog...if you want to participate (including getting your butt handed to you) ..post in a forum.
I agree with this - conceptually

The reality is much different, or there would be no need for moderators..
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Old 31-07-2013, 21:11   #187
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

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Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
Let me start out by giving my sympathies to the OP for the horrendous experience he went through, and continues to go through (as the Mexican authorities will no doubt hold him responsible for removing his vessel at a minimum). I also thank him for sharing his experiences for others to learn. I think most of us do have a feeling of "there but for the grace of god go I": we all made a lot of mistakes along the way to acquiring experience and knowledge.

That said, if this thread were to only be about sympathizing with the OP about his loss then it wouldn't do justice to this forum and its members (and lurkers). Isn't the purpose of this forum to share knowledge? And when a boat is lost, isn't it appropriate to review critically the events that lead up to the loss? It should not come as a surprise to anyone, least of all the OP, that mistakes were made. Saying so, and discussing those mistakes, shouldn't be interpreted as kicking the OP when he is down (nor should we be kicking the OP in fact). I hope he will accept the comments here as well-intentioned efforts to educate others, even if not always phrased in the kindest words. And those who point out those mistakes should certainly be spared the abuse of other posters.

I think that aside from the specific mistakes made here, there is a larger question of adequacy of preparation by new cruisers (which may or may not apply to this particular case). Simply put, there are a lot of folks who have acquired a boat and are going cruising now, with no intention of investing the time and effort to prepare themselves and their boat for the rigors and risks of ocean cruising. We live in a world of instant gratification, and woe be to anyone who suggests that a new owner needs to wait, gain local experience, and prepare before making their cruising dreams come true. I hope that the OP's experiences both serve as a learning opportunity for all of us, but more importantly also as a warning for those who would happily slip the lines before doing their homework.

I'll slip into my armor now...

Greg
No need to slip into armour Greg, a thoughtful post. Had the OP been handled with minimal tact, the conversation might continue, with the principal parties. The guy had a language barrier, and cultural sensitivity is not something we are renowned for in the US. People are proud, and we can criticize him all we want now... But all we got is all we get, and I consider that a loss for the continued discussion. To be fair, he seems sensitive, but I for one would never take someones comments after abandoning their ship personally.

The conversation stopped, because people post to hear themselves talk, not to encourage others to talk. Had the guy been handled differently, perhaps we'd be talking it out with him now...learn he is diabetic, or has aspergers, or G. Barre or culturally believes sewing is for women.

I can think of a lot of different ways to keep a conversation going, in several languages, and it gets more difficult without body language, tone of voice, etc. But sarcasm and lack of empathy are real conversation killers in much of the world, no real mystery there.
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Old 31-07-2013, 21:56   #188
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
The guy had a bad day.... to many problems he could not handle alone so he hit the button....
Well, there were several little problems--low batteries, bad fuel, a ripped jib--but only one major problem: the OP stopped navigating. He was so busy trying to get his engine running and calling for assistance that he apparently didn't didn't bother to log his position every hour. That was a huge mistake. Had he done so, it would have soon become apparent that he was going to make landfall within a short time without having to fix any of the small problems. He would have realized, at that point, that there was ample time to decant fuel, mend the jib, set up the dink to provide a short tow into harbor, et cetera.

The OP obviously knew his position well enough to relay it to potential rescuers. But if he'd have logged it and recorded it on the chart he'd have seen that he really didn't need the rescuers in the first place.

Problem solved.

(I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, Boatman, but I'm hoping that folks don't walk away from this thread having learned the wrong lesson. Yes, we should all carry sticky-back sail repair cloth, or even better carry a spare jib, and yes, all cruisers would be well-advised to install dual Racor water-separating filters, but what may have saved the day here may have been simple nautical discipline: log your position regularly.)
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Old 31-07-2013, 22:11   #189
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

Handling this situation and this poster with tact would have required basic manners.

I have a granddaughter that could have done it.

Unfortunately, she's not here.
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Old 31-07-2013, 22:17   #190
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

[QUOTE=Bash;1299100]Well, there were several little problems--low batteries, bad fuel, a ripped jib--but only one major problem: the OP stopped navigating.

There is the rub, i reckon.

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Old 31-07-2013, 22:26   #191
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
(I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, Boatman, but I'm hoping that folks don't walk away from this thread having learned the wrong lesson. Yes, we should all carry sticky-back sail repair cloth, or even better carry a spare jib, and yes, all cruisers would be well-advised to install dual Racor water-separating filters, but what may have saved the day here may have been simple nautical discipline: log your position regularly.)
Nah man, just grab your iPad, cut the docklines, and go!
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Old 31-07-2013, 22:35   #192
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
Baloney. All posts on the internet are about ego and being right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Either you just proved it or you have a good sense of humor....
I dunno pnsneeld...I went a round with you in another thread and it seemed to be true.... I'm just sayin...end transmission
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Old 31-07-2013, 23:06   #193
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

The problem is that we don't have a full picture of the situation; nor are we likely to get it now. It seems that he had a single 12V GPS and no backup with batteries, which if true would have been a mistake. Other than a handheld GPS, any laptop with a $35 GPS dongle, or tablet, with navigation software would have sufficed. We don't know if he was relying on a chartplotter, or whether he had paper charts of the area. But failing any of these alternatives he could have got into harbor from the known position available from the Dole ship and a little old-fashioned dead-reckoning combined with some help from them for creating a safe track. There were solutions to the navigation problem had he pursued them.

Similarly, there were solutions to the problem of moving the vessel without an engine, and without a tow, had he first the confidence of a safe track. Clearly the boat was able to be sailed, and was not taking on water.

Being so close to safe harbor I don't see the food and water supply to be an issue; in any event, it shouldn't have been. Frozen/refrigerated food should always be considered a luxury which could be lost at any moment through refrigeration failure. I cannot imagine cruising without at least a month or two of canned food aboard, but perhaps that wasn't the case.

It seems to me that the real issue is that he was mentally unprepared to do what it would take to bring a crippled but ultimately seaworthy vessel to safe harbor. I do not mean to trivialize this: I have known a number of folks that have found themselves in similar predicaments, and could only think of calling for help for someone to extricate them. Mostly this is a result of over-reliance on engines, GPS, auto-pilots, and the sundry other devices that make modern cruising easier; when they are suddenly lost, it can shatter one's confidence. Even cause panic. This is a lot less likely to happen to those who have spent a season or two practicing getting around without engine and GPS, and learned to keep a DR plot. I wonder how many of those who plan to go cruising today can say they can bring their boat in without engine and electronics? Can sail in an anchor? Sound with a lead line? Steer with a recently swung compass? Or measure distance with a taffrail log (or even know what that is), or at least be able to estimate speed? Without those traditional skills, perhaps it isn't so surprising that so many can't see the way ahead when the stinky stuff hits the fan. Again, I note that I have no way of knowing how much this applies to this particular situation since the OP seems to have left the discussion. But clearly it does apply to quite a few. My plea for all who start on this quest: learn to sail, and survive, on your boat without engine, refrigeration, water-maker, electronics, [edit: and autopilot!] before going out and relying on them.

There is an analog in the world of flying. Several of the recent airline disasters come down to some failure of automated systems followed by an inability of the pilots to understand and take effective manual control of the plane. Relying on automation gets people killed...

Greg
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Old 31-07-2013, 23:45   #194
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

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I'm speechless. Not just from the story of the OP, but also from many of the replies. Scary even. And then to see that the posters that do have the knowledge and experience get bashed instead of listened to; it is beyond insane.
Knowledge and experience have never been enough to warrant listening. There is no reason to set the bar that low. The same, and more, are available everywhere.

If you want to lead, you need the knowledge, the experience and skill at leading.

If you want to teach, you need the knowledge, the experience and skill at teaching.

However, if you want to harangue, belittle or act like an ill-mannered child, all you need is a keyboard. In that case, what you know or don't know won't matter, and you will be successful at camouflaging any experience you have and making it blend in with the dirt.

None of you know so much or have so much experience that we will forgive you bad manners. Some of you will never know, and some of you will not survive to gain the experience. Some of you may even think we listen to you.

You can speak like an adult man or an adult woman, regardless of what you know or where you've been. But you would need the desire to be perceived as a man or a woman, and the manners to bring it off. If you don't want me to think of you as an adult, I won't second guess you. You know yourself better than I do.

Knowledge and experience have never been enough to attract me. I have more self-respect than that. As, apparently, does the original poster.

If you want me to listen to you, earn it. It's not hard. Children can do it. Some of the posters here have done it.

Then maybe your knowledge and experience can be brought into play.
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:36   #195
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Re: Regret to Inform Have Lost my Boat off Honduras...

The unanswered questions about the OP's precise situation are frustrating.

It would have been good to have had the chance to have a gentle conversation with him about the details.

The obvious question I would have asked was 'Did you consider sailing her home under mainsail?' I am sure he loved his boat and is pretty distressed so, it would be hard to phrase the questions tactfully.

The superior and unsympathetic tone of many of the posts on this thread has been really depressing. I wonder if these posters had been on the rescue ship talking to the guy over a cup of coffee, whether they would have spoken to him in the same sneering, contemptuous way or whether they would have been more understanding. I suspect the latter.

Or maybe, some of you guys would really sit oopposite a guy telling tell you his story about losing his boat the day before and, immediately, launch into a tirade about how he shouldn't be allowed outside a marina and what a dumb ****, he is. Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't because it would achieve nothing and upset the guy more. Maybe you wouldn't because you might get a punch in the face.

The Internet is full of people who hide behind their keyboard and behave in a way that they would never dare to behave in their personal life.

Everyone here would like to make sense of this tragedy and better understand exactly what happened and some of us have learned and benefited from the OP's honest account and others' construnctive comments.

But there are ways of going about discussing things. Somone raised the very valid point about basic politeness. Yes.

My experience is that the sea tends to make those who travel on it more humble and aware of their fallibility, so I am surprised at the number of people on here who know everything and never make mistakes. That is one thing that you can say about the OP. He didn't claim to be perfect or blame anyone, else.

The flaming that the OP received seems to have been because some people believe that he made a mistake in abandoning (HIS) vessel. Maybe, back on dry land, the OP thinks that as well, now. I am sure he dwells on it.

Since the OP has, understandably, left the thread, we are left with a few scraps of information and conjecture.

Rav.
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