Registering a yacht in Australia

[StuM]

Originally Posted by haiqu

But besides that, there's the issue of just how much infrastructure we have to pay for. Let's take a look at fees on a state by state basis for a nominal yacht of 9 metres (about 30'):

As you can see there's a significant variation, some would say inequity, particularly when you compare Queensland with, say, Victoria.

How do those figures look on a "per NM of coastline" or per "square mile of controlled waters" basis .

With the obvious exception of NT

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by haiqu

I'm talking about national registration i.e. listed as a ship, in your terminology. That's not entirely correct to call it that because NZ category B doesn't contain ships, it contains pleasure vessels. In Australia that's called the General Register. Please sort out your nomenclature.

Part of the reason I argued with #28 was your insistence in calling national registration "listing as a ship". It's just national registration. And that didn't give you a pass to claim - as you did in #39 above - that you "already mentioned exemptions" because you most certainly did not, at least with respect to state legislation.

from post 28 - Unless you are exempt under local registration ( was meant to be legislation, ipad error) due to being on the ships list, then yes, you must still be registered no matter where you are from

It's pretty clear that I was indeed discussing 'state legislation' situation in that post.

In New Zealand there is NO state/county registration. In Australia there is NO county registration. I wouldn't know about New Zealand, but there is definately state registration in every State other than NT.. You have acknowledged this so I can't see how your now saying there isn't. Or are you hung up on the word 'county'? If you are, then 'county' and 'states', territories are the same thing.

The only Australian state that has any issue with foreign vessels travelling its coastline freely is Western Australia, where they have to pay a quarterly fee if remaining in WA waters longer than 30 days.

A Marine Policeman? No wonder you're obtuse. am I , didn't realise that. I thought I was answering your questions and trying to be as helpful as I could.

The system is a bloody shambles. It's not my burden to prove that I reside in NT if I claim it to be so, it's yours to disprove it. Well you can believe me as an EX cop or not, I don't really care. But there is a reverse onus of proof which applies in Tasmania and I wouldn't mind betting it's in most states.. If you claim as a defence that you reside in the Northern Territory in order to use an exemption to register your vessel, then the onus will be on YOU to provide proof of that. That will be your legal responsibility..

Can't be done, since I have no address in Australia. That freaks out petty bureaucrats, but frankly it's not my problem. Like I said, as an ex cop, I'm purely advising you, that it will be your problem. YES.. at the very best if they book you, they will tie you up in court for months.. No skin off their noses as they get paid to go to court. To you, it will be a hell of an inconvienance.

The law shouldn't be all about whether you piss off the local constab, mate. It's about the letter of the legislation and what was intended by it. And frankly there are too many police who take their job far too personally and abuse the power given to them by the badge. Case in point was a raid in Qld on a yacht inhabited by the very guy who wrote the legislation. He was fairly horrified. See old issues of The Coastal Passage for more details.

I really don't know why your getting so hot under the collar.. you asked, I tried to assist with advice. Based on the legislation as it is. So, take it or leave it.

And dude, ok, I have no problem of you insisting the National registration is a registration not a 'list'.. I was just trying to be clear with you which 'list' you were talking about because you seem to jump around a lot. But, I fully acknowledge it's 'registration'..

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by haiqu

You made a point about registration fees paying for infrastructure, and I agree that this is a great idea in theory. Unfortunately such ideas are fairly self-defeating though, because the vast majority of it goes into enforcement and administration, which is sort of empire building with no particular goal other than the self-perpetuation of registration fees.

But besides that, there's the issue of just how much infrastructure we have to pay for. Let's take a look at fees on a state by state basis for a nominal yacht of 9 metres (about 30'):

State                 Fee             Comment
 
NT                     0
VIC                   82.30         No fee unless engine fitted
NSW                  183.00         Any over 5.5m
QLD                  312.24         Any with engine over 3kw
TAS                   90.60         Any with engine over 4hp
SA                   247.00         No fee unless engine fitted
WA                   238.00         Any "capable of" an engine, inc. electric

As you can see there's a significant variation, some would say inequity, particularly when you compare Queensland with, say, Victoria.

I'll make one final point about why this is a cockup for the cruising yachtsman. If I don't have an address, how the hell do I get registration papers sent to me? Even if I walked into an office in Tassie tomorrow they'd insist on posting the damned registration out, I'm sure. After all, any place that still quotes engines in horsepower probably doesn't even have computers yet. :-)

In Qld and NSW I get around this by having paperwork sent to my brother. But woe betide me if I haven't been to visit the yacht in six months and therefore had no chance to attach the registration label, or let the barnacles grow a little too long.

I mean really, this is the "infrastructure" we're actually paying for - childish pedantry and parochialism.

Yes, I certainly agree with you there is a wide variation been the costs and frankly some of those costs are outlandish given the lack of infrastructure installed by the authorities. Our less than $100 a year is seeing new jetty's and moorings being built all over Tassie. It's making a hell of a difference.

But that's the result of an autonomous State's and Territary system.. What would you like instead, a one Federal Government system? Seriously? If you do, I'd love to read your complaints following that sort of system.

As for your 'lack of address' problem, that's really a problem you are putting on yourself, why is this an example of burocratic nonsense? Most cruisers will have someone that forwards their mail on to them or have your mail sent to a post office for collection where your next going. But either way, this is a problem you are bringing on yourself.. it's not the governments fault that you don't have a permament place of residence.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by haiqu

A Marine Policeman? No wonder you're obtuse. The system is a bloody shambles. It's not my burden to prove that I reside in NT if I claim it to be so, it's yours to disprove it.

two things, Although Rustic Charm and I do not agree entirely on the interpretation of some aspects of the Shipping Registration Act (Cmwlth), not only is your comment insultin, whats worse is that it is inaccurate, he has evidenced more knowledge thus far in these discussions that anyone else on this board.

Secondly and more importantly if you falsely pretend to reside somewhere in order to gain a benefit or advantage you may commit the offence of "Imposition".

And the wallopers dont have to prove that you don't live in NT simply that you lied to them, relatively easy to do, produce all known government records eg electoral rolls and the like to demonstrate you are a liar.

Further, most jurisdictions provide for a requirement to produce evidence of identity of name and address and failure to produce same is an offence.

Of course all they really have to do is produce this thread and you are stuffed, in a strictly legal sense.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by GILow

Meanwhile I pay the better part of a grand in South Australia for rego and if I want to use the outboard on the tender there goes another few hundred dollars. I row the tender.

Sometimes I am so sadly misinformed I could cry. It turns out my rego is a bit under $400 and I could register the tender for less than $20. I don't know how I got it in my head that the tender would be a couple of hundred but I am now kicking myself for not registering it straight away. I suspect the initial rego cost is the hard part as I will need a HIN number and having that fitted to the tender will cost more than the dear old thing is actually worth. Still, the main thing here is to correct my misinformation before someone believes me.


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[haiqu]

Originally Posted by Factor

two things, Although Rustic Charm and I do not agree entirely on the interpretation of some aspects of the Shipping Registration Act (Cmwlth), not only is your comment insultin, whats worse is that it is inaccurate, he has evidenced more knowledge thus far in these discussions that anyone else on this board.

I'm pretty sure from his responses that he's not all that thin-skinned, and I did already acknowledge that I was playing the devil's advocate here. If I were in Tassie I'd buy him a beer, he's a pretty cool guy.

Secondly and more importantly if you falsely pretend to reside somewhere in order to gain a benefit or advantage you may commit the offence of "Imposition".

Harrumph.

A person imposes or attempts to impose on another person if the person-

(a) makes an oral or written representation that is false or fraudulent with intent to obtain money or an advantage from the other person; or
(b) by dress, apparel or otherwise, fraudulently seeks to obtain money or an advantage from the other person.

I'm not trying to obtain money or advantages from anyone, unless by some strange quirk of legalese the government can be defined as "a person".

And the wallopers dont have to prove that you don't live in NT simply that you lied to them, relatively easy to do, produce all known government records eg electoral rolls and the like to demonstrate you are a liar.

As a homeless person I'm exempt from being on the electroral roles. Living in a yacht is not regarded as "owning a home" for the very reason that if it did the owner could rightfully refuse entry to officials unless they had a warrant. Clearly that isn't the case, especially in Queensland. The only official exception to this viewpoint is for the purposes of Social Security, where assistance is not available to boat dwellers (or car owners) since they already "have a home". Seriously. And no, I don't collect benefits either.

I have driver's licences from both Victoria and New Zealand, and yachts registered (yes, they are both registered) in NSW and QLD. But none of that proves residence. I rarely stay in one state longer than three months.

Further, most jurisdictions provide for a requirement to produce evidence of identity of name and address and failure to produce same is an offence.

They do require I provide identification, but since the current system doesn't cater for this case I can't be held at fault if the address attached doesn't reflect the actual situation. I can't go to VicRoads and say "please change my address to "no fixed address". Their system can't do that.

Of course all they really have to do is produce this thread and you are stuffed, in a strictly legal sense.

Not really, this is an entirely hypothetical scenario. Chillax, bro.

[haiqu]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Yes, I certainly agree with you there is a wide variation been the costs and frankly some of those costs are outlandish given the lack of infrastructure installed by the authorities. Our less than $100 a year is seeing new jetty's and moorings being built all over Tassie. It's making a hell of a difference.

Tasmania would seem to be the exception then. In other places the coastline is peppered with overpriced private marinas catering for rich people with Bendytoys and Condomarans that are never used.

But that's the result of an autonomous State's and Territary system.. What would you like instead, a one Federal Government system? Seriously? If you do, I'd love to read your complaints following that sort of system.

No thanks. I lived in Canberra for 18 months and it was enough to drive me to drink.

As for your 'lack of address' problem, that's really a problem you are putting on yourself, why is this an example of burocratic nonsense? Most cruisers will have someone that forwards their mail on to them or have your mail sent to a post office for collection where your next going. But either way, this is a problem you are bringing on yourself.. it's not the governments fault that you don't have a permament place of residence.

I have no complaint about a lack of address, and I do have someone who can forward mail. However it can take months sometimes, during which time I've often moved on. My van registration renewal in one case had to be sent three times because it kept missing me. And this was without trying to comply with the theoretical legal requirement to change registration to a new state after exactly three months. If I actually followed the rules as they stand I'd be doing nothing but running about shuffling paperwork rather than traveling.

I chose this lifestyle, which is every bit as valid as any of the grey nomads traveling around in camper vans in their retirement. All I'm saying is that it isn't easy to stay on the right side of the letter of the law, when the law is so difficult to comply with.

Do I have a solution to all this? Sure. I could solve this at government level in about 10 seconds. But hey, I'm just some old bloke living on a yacht and making a nuisance of himself so who'd listen? And besides, it would take years to implement the changes because governments are slow to act, particularly when the issue only affects a small sampling of the population.

And more relevantly, it would enable a lifestyle that governments don't want to encourage. Welcome to Social Engineering 101.

[haiqu]

This thread deserves one final post. I was hoping someone would take the bait and ask how I'd solve it at goverment level, but since nobody has I'll just go ahead and tell you.

Vessels registered on the Australian General Registry (i.e. cruising yachts) should be legally afforded exactly the same rights as foreign vessels when travelling outside their home state. How that would work is like this:

1. Each vessel nominates a home port, totally by personal choice. It is painted on the transom along with the name.
2. When within the state to which that home port belongs for longer than three months, the vessel must be state registered.
3. When travelling outside that state, the vessel should be treated as a foreign vessel.

This simplifies the system so much it's amazing nobody has considered it.

There would be little disadvantage to the owner and a great many advantages. The administration would be almost zero. In Western Australia their 30 day rule for foreign vessels should be altered to exclude those on the Australian General Register.

For the average person who rarely takes their yacht out of the state it would make zero difference. For the person who wishes to travel around Australia and possibly overseas, it opens up a whole new world.

Look at the wording of the Class B registration in New Zealand, they have it totally right. In the NZ document "A General Guide to Ship Registration" you'll find the following passage:

-----
Registration in Part A or Part B:

- could help make reality any vaguely formed intention to some day sail off overseas, say to the islands of the South Pacific. If you see your yacht as a potential safety valve providing the means of escape from urban stress, or you experience a sudden burst of wanderlust, then registration will enable you to move quickly to give reality to your plans;

and

- protects your vessel's name, for as long as the vessel is registered. Once your chosen name is on the books, it belongs uniquely to your vessel; no other registered New Zealand ship can use the same name.

-----

Until and unless the Australian government makes these changes I can see very little incentive to register any vessel under her flag. And that, boys and girls, is one of the many reasons I'm retiring to new Zealand.

[haiqu]

Originally Posted by StuM

How do those figures look on a "per NM of coastline" or per "square mile of controlled waters" basis .

With the obvious exception of NT

Pretty random actually. But to do it properly you'd also have to take into account population density and boat ownership per thousand. I leave that exercise for someone who actuarially cares.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by haiqu

This thread deserves one final post. I was hoping someone would take the bait and ask how I'd solve it at goverment level, but since nobody has I'll just go ahead and tell you.

Vessels registered on the Australian General Registry (i.e. cruising yachts) should be legally afforded exactly the same rights as foreign vessels when travelling outside their home state. How that would work is like this:

1. Each vessel nominates a home port, totally by personal choice. It is painted on the transom along with the name.
2. When within the state to which that home port belongs for longer than three months, the vessel must be state registered.
3. When travelling outside that state, the vessel should be treated as a foreign vessel.

...and when within the State to which the home port belongs for less than 3 months...a foreign vessel? Seems odd.

Otherwise though, it sounds very much like the current system...as we understand it anyway. Aust Flag vessels, i.e. vessels on the Aust Register of Ships, also need their home port State registration...or at least that was how it was suggested to us by NSW Maritime when we sailed CatNirvana into OZ (now her home) waters a few years back. How the further transition to AMSA affects all this, we're not at all sure.

Originally Posted by haiqu

There would be little disadvantage to the owner...

...and for those (perhaps majority of?) vessels who never leave their home State? Presumably still just State registration for them?

Originally Posted by haiqu

protects your vessel's name, for as long as the vessel is registered. Once your chosen name is on the books, it belongs uniquely to your vessel; no other registered New Zealand ship can use the same name.

Fair enuf in NZ, but in OZ with all the States' registration systems, the whole name protection thing disappears as its currently administered. Only the Aust Register of Ships seems to be concerned with name protection...at least as we understand the system!

Originally Posted by haiqu

Until and unless the Australian government makes these changes I can see very little incentive to register any vessel under her flag.

Call us emotional perhaps, but we kinda like the Aus flag proudly flying on CatNirvana's stern...and that (along with making our small contributions to maritime administration in our beautiful waters) is enough incentive for us!

[Snowpetrel]

Tassie boat rego certainly is fair value, lots of launching ramps and free puplic wharfs that can be used. I don't at all begrudge the $100 or so per year. And even then they often have a surplus to fund worthwhile projects. Marine and safety Tas is a pretty lean organization compared to most of the mainland equivalents, so most of the money goes into the boat fund, not wages and admin costs.

For what it's worth, I was quite happy to leave NZ with its very restrictive cat 1 requirements for any NZ registered boats going overseas.

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[El Pinguino]

Academic but I would choose Aust flag before NZ flag simply because of the Cat 1 business.

[Warby12]

For general info I will mention it is easier to get Australian Registration for a foreign registered boat (ours was French) if you can the original (eg French) registration cancelled and get the "Deletion Certificate" over to AMSA. Then you do not have to prove the history of the vessel (past owners etc)
Also we found AMSA to be very helpful.

[Rustic Charm]

Well Haiqu,

thank you for your suggestions on how the system could be bettered.

I don't think you have a solid grasp of some of the things your suggesting , but alas, ideas are good to spread around and chat about. Personally I like our system, though clearly some of the other states have ridiculously high premiums.

I wish you well in retirement and don't forget before you cross the ditch towards your retirement you were going to buy me a beer Boags, none of that Vic Bitter crap.

[Warby12]

A hard earned thirst, needs a good cold beer and the best cold beer is Vic, Victoria Bitter! (Great ad )