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Old 07-10-2015, 20:51   #31
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Unless you are exempt under local registration due to being on the ships list, then yes, you must still be registered no matter where you are from (Tasmania). You would need to be 'commercial' to get that exemption here. Thus the three months rule does definitely apply.
I think you're missing the point. I'm talking about putting my yacht on the national register (i.e. the "ships list" as you call it).

You don't have to be a commercial operator to do that, there's a separate category for private leisure vessels.

Just to make the point clearer, imagine if you sailed your yacht to Port Phillip. Would you need Victorian registration immediately? No, of course not, unless you intended to stay there permanently. As soon as you try to rent a governement-controlled mooring you need state registration, not before.
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Old 07-10-2015, 20:56   #32
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I have placed two recreational vessels on the Australian register. In both cases it was not possible for me to provide any history of past ownership (except for the person I purchased from).
In both cases AMSA accepted a Stat Dec from me explaining the situation and the unsuccessful attempts I had undertaken to trace ownership. This followed up with a Public Notice in the State (Qld) newspaper and a formal notice placed into the Australian Government Gazette for any interested party to make themselves known.

Mind you, this was 20 years back but I reckon the principle will remain the same

It was tedious but doable.
Now that's EXACTLY the kind of detail I was after. THANK YOU. I had no idea you could do a stat dec and gazette posting for this.

Gold.

Honestly, if AMSA had one single clue about their business this detail would be on their website. But then again, why try to drag them, kicking and screaming, into the nineties? They're a lost cause.
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Old 07-10-2015, 20:58   #33
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
There would appear to be nothing 'convenient' about the Australian flag


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Australian commercial ships ( what few are left) may be either state or commonwealth registered depending on whether they are engaged in intra or interstate trade. Used to make a major diff in survey requirements, manning costs, etc etc.
Interesting.

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Sliding right off topic one of the major 'flags of convenience' these days is the UK Red Ensign.... many of the ships on it these days are chinese owned operated and manned... pretty much all the rest in the 'Red Ensign" group ( IoM, Bemuda, assorted carribean states) always have been.
What ever happened to Panama and Liberia?
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Old 07-10-2015, 21:27   #34
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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What ever happened to Panama and Liberia?
They are still out there... but the big one these days seems to be Marshall Islands
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Old 07-10-2015, 23:49   #35
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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I think you're missing the point. I'm talking about putting my yacht on the national register (i.e. the "ships list" as you call it).

You don't have to be a commercial operator to do that, there's a separate category for private leisure vessels.

Just to make the point clearer, imagine if you sailed your yacht to Port Phillip. Would you need Victorian registration immediately? No, of course not, unless you intended to stay there permanently. As soon as you try to rent a governement-controlled mooring you need state registration, not before.
Ok, I'm not sure which point I'm missing so I'll try to be clearer..

YES, I understand you want to 'list' your sail boat as a 'ship' and YES, you don't have to be commercial. Mine is on the list and I'm not commercial. No problems here is there.. We are both on the same track I hope..

Now the next point.. If you sail your listed ship to Victoria, then you will need to be registered somewhere in Australia YES! Definitely! It will not matter whether you are there permanently or just a few days, you will need to be registered somewhere in some state.. YES...

And regardless of whether you try to rent a government mooring, you will need registration somewhere, from some state, just for entering the waters of Victoria.. YES!

How we going now? Did I cover everything? or have I missed another point.

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Old 08-10-2015, 02:45   #36
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

As a full-time liveaboard that isn't true for Victoria.

If you go to this page https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/regi...ister-a-vessel and click on the Exemptions tab, you'll see the following:

-------------
A vessel that is:

- temporarily being operated on State waters and
- is exempt from registration as a vessel in another State or a Territory in which the owner the vessel ordinarily resides.
-------------

All I have to do is say I live in the NT and they can't do a thing about it. As I already said, I don't own a house in Australia, so I don't "ordinarily reside" anywhere. If it's taken on where I own a home then I'm a kiwi (which is pretty funny actually). New Zealand has no registration or licencing requirements for yachts at all.

For Queensland there's a three month grace period before registration is necessary.

It's the same for my van. I'm not going to change the damned registration every time I drive interstate, that would be madness. But it IS registered in Victoria mainly because there's no "federal" motor vehicle registration for cars.

I'm purposely playing the devil's advocate here to point out the stupidity of this whole system.

The other loophole is that Victoria requires no registration for a yacht without an engine. Unbolt the outboard, problem solved.
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Old 08-10-2015, 02:46   #37
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
regardless of whether you try to rent a government mooring, you will need registration somewhere, from some state, just for entering the waters of Victoria..
That's consistent with our experience as well, although ours involved NSW (rather than Victoria) insisting -- We were stopped several times on Sydney Harbour by Maritime Officers -- on State registration even though we were already on the Australian Register of Ships after importing/sailing CatNirvana into Australian waters from Europe.

We found both AMSA and NSW Maritime to be helpful, provided we approached them with plenty of information and patience.
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Old 08-10-2015, 02:56   #38
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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That's consistent with our experience as well, although ours involved NSW (rather than Victoria) insisting -- We were stopped several times on Sydney Harbour by Maritime Officers -- on State registration even though we were already on the Australian Register of Ships after importing/sailing CatNirvana into Australian waters from Europe.

We found both AMSA and NSW Maritime to be helpful, provided we approached them with plenty of information and patience.
You're correct. There's no exemption in NSW, but you can be there for three months on interstate registration. If registered overseas there's no issue.

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/r...-overseas.html

This is one of the reasons I was considering NZ registration.
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Old 08-10-2015, 03:11   #39
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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Originally Posted by haiqu View Post
As a full-time liveaboard that isn't true for Victoria.

If you go to this page https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/regi...ister-a-vessel and click on the Exemptions tab, you'll see the following:

-------------
A vessel that is:

- temporarily being operated on State waters and
- is exempt from registration as a vessel in another State or a Territory in which the owner the vessel ordinarily resides.
-------------

All I have to do is say I live in the NT and they can't do a thing about it. As I already said, I don't own a house in Australia, so I don't "ordinarily reside" anywhere. If it's taken on where I own a home then I'm a kiwi (which is pretty funny actually).

For Queensland there's a three month grace period before registration is necessary.

It's the same for my van. I'm not going to change the damned registration every time I drive interstate, that would be madness. But it IS registered in Victoria mainly because there's no "federal" motor vehicle registration for cars.

I'm purposely playing the devil's advocate here to point out the stupidity of this whole system.

The other loophole is that no state in Australia requires registration for a yacht without an engine. Unbolt the outboard, problem solved.
Haiqu, are you being deliberately argumentative because I did make that point about exemptions under local legislation in post 28 to you and you argued that too and then you brought in local shipping stuff again.. But, YES your are correct, under Vic legislation you might if your lucky get away with not being registered anywhere by claiming your a resident of the Northern Territory. If they are on to you, as I certainly would have been when I did Police Marine duties, I'd be asking you for proof that you reside in the Northern Territory and then your you know, rhymes with pucked!

And I disagree completely that the 'system' is stupid.. what exactly is stupid about the system? In Tasmania, state registration provides for one hell of a lot of infrastructure we wouldn't otherwise have around the state for boaters... I think it's pretty stupid in the NT as they don't even need a basic boat license, but I know Territorians would disagree with that.

And yes, you could take the engine out and just sail everywhere and you will be exempt.. You might like to check that in each state though because some states might have a disclaimer along the lines of a boat being 'capable off' or 'ordinarily having' or something like that. Just a suggestion.

And re your van, if you come visit us, a word of caution, the legislation gives you three months if your living here, but if you piss off the local constab, they will book you for being unregistered and you will be the one to have to argue in over the coming 6 to 9 months in court and in the mean time each time you drive it, you will have another one added on. You will get tired of going to court before they will. so don't piss them off. And you can only holiday here for 12 months.
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Old 08-10-2015, 03:14   #40
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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You're correct. There's no exemption in NSW, but you can be there for three months on interstate registration. If registered overseas there's no issue.

Interstate and overseas vessels - Registration - Maritime - Roads and Maritime Services

This is one of the reasons I was considering NZ registration.
I'm almost hesitant to ask this question of you Haiqu , but when you say above, 'if registered overseas there's no issue', are you referring to overseas listing as a ship or overseas state/county registration like we have here?
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Old 08-10-2015, 04:19   #41
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

FWIW, our AMSA registered vessel got FREE registration in Victoria with the previous owners. There was some system whereby they sent the AMSA registration details to VicRoads (I know, sounds weird) and got a special dispensation and free registration. And, to cap it off, the registration covered the tender as well. Meanwhile I pay the better part of a grand in South Australia for rego and if I want to use the outboard on the tender there goes another few hundred dollars. I row the tender.

Anyway, the moral of the story seems to be that it would pay to shop around if you can. If I were not so concerned about legal and insurance implications I'd register our boat in Victoria through one of my family members.

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Old 08-10-2015, 04:25   #42
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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FWIW, our AMSA registered vessel got FREE registration in Victoria with the previous owners. There was some system whereby they sent the AMSA registration details to VicRoads (I know, sounds weird) and got a special dispensation and free registration. And, to cap it off, the registration covered the tender as well. Meanwhile I pay the better part of a grand in South Australia for rego and if I want to use the outboard on the tender there goes another few hundred dollars. I row the tender.

Anyway, the moral of the story seems to be that it would pay to shop around if you can. If I were not so concerned about legal and insurance implications I'd register our boat in Victoria through one of my family members.

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Old 08-10-2015, 05:56   #43
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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Apparently the rules have change since you did it. Part B registration found here:

Part B ship registration - Maritime New Zealand

It's actually only NZ$920 but is limited to 5 years, after which it can be renewed for another fee (whatever that will be in 5 years).
I looked it up myself again. I guess my boat 34' tri was in the Part A. I'm assuming in 1980 it was super cheap like most things then in NZ. But it is stuck in Part A. So you have to pay the $1200 transfer fee. I suppose not bad considering the $950 for 5 years, but there are much cheaper options like the SSR or FL antique registration for $3.75 per year.
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Old 08-10-2015, 08:47   #44
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I'm almost hesitant to ask this question of you Haiqu , but when you say above, 'if registered overseas there's no issue', are you referring to overseas listing as a ship or overseas state/county registration like we have here?
I'm talking about national registration i.e. listed as a ship, in your terminology. That's not entirely correct to call it that because NZ category B doesn't contain ships, it contains pleasure vessels. In Australia that's called the General Register. Please sort out your nomenclature.

Part of the reason I argued with #28 was your insistence in calling national registration "listing as a ship". It's just national registration. And that didn't give you a pass to claim - as you did in #39 above - that you "already mentioned exemptions" because you most certainly did not, at least with respect to state legislation.

In New Zealand there is NO state/county registration. In Australia there is NO county registration.

The only Australian state that has any issue with foreign vessels travelling its coastline freely is Western Australia, where they have to pay a quarterly fee if remaining in WA waters longer than 30 days.

A Marine Policeman? No wonder you're obtuse. The system is a bloody shambles. It's not my burden to prove that I reside in NT if I claim it to be so, it's yours to disprove it. Can't be done, since I have no address in Australia. That freaks out petty bureaucrats, but frankly it's not my problem.

The law shouldn't be all about whether you piss off the local constab, mate. It's about the letter of the legislation and what was intended by it. And frankly there are too many police who take their job far too personally and abuse the power given to them by the badge. Case in point was a raid in Qld on a yacht inhabited by the very guy who wrote the legislation. He was fairly horrified. See old issues of The Coastal Passage for more details.
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Old 08-10-2015, 09:46   #45
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Re: Registering a yacht in Australia

You made a point about registration fees paying for infrastructure, and I agree that this is a great idea in theory. Unfortunately such ideas are fairly self-defeating though, because the vast majority of it goes into enforcement and administration, which is sort of empire building with no particular goal other than the self-perpetuation of registration fees.

But besides that, there's the issue of just how much infrastructure we have to pay for. Let's take a look at fees on a state by state basis for a nominal yacht of 9 metres (about 30'):

Code:
State                 Fee             Comment

NT                     0
VIC                   82.30         No fee unless engine fitted
NSW                  183.00         Any over 5.5m
QLD                  312.24         Any with engine over 3kw
TAS                   90.60         Any with engine over 4hp
SA                   247.00         No fee unless engine fitted
WA                   238.00         Any "capable of" an engine, inc. electric
As you can see there's a significant variation, some would say inequity, particularly when you compare Queensland with, say, Victoria.

I'll make one final point about why this is a cockup for the cruising yachtsman. If I don't have an address, how the hell do I get registration papers sent to me? Even if I walked into an office in Tassie tomorrow they'd insist on posting the damned registration out, I'm sure. After all, any place that still quotes engines in horsepower probably doesn't even have computers yet. :-)

In Qld and NSW I get around this by having paperwork sent to my brother. But woe betide me if I haven't been to visit the yacht in six months and therefore had no chance to attach the registration label, or let the barnacles grow a little too long.

I mean really, this is the "infrastructure" we're actually paying for - childish pedantry and parochialism.
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