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Old 11-04-2014, 18:22   #46
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

In thinking about the negative lessons to be learned from Rebel Heart's experience, and granting that my facts are limited to those available from the Kaufmann's postings and blogs, news accounts and information from people who corresponded with Eric prior to departure, I think the following would be my list. Perhaps the Kaufmann's were all over some of these, but based on what little I know, it doesn't appear so. Some of this is based on my own experience cruising, by the way.

1. Do not depart offshore if your spouse isn't into it. It isn't fair, he/she most likely she will hate it and if something bad happens you will never live it down and you will feel horrible.
2. Do not depart if your vessel isn't ready. There are no parts stores offshore. The leaks on Rebel Heart that occurred when the engine started were likely from a cracked heat exchanger. If you can't afford to ensure functioning of important equipment you can't afford to make your family dependent on those systems.
3. Don't wash dirty diapers in the galley sink. You might get very sick.
4. The Interweb is your friend. If you have a health issue, or if your child has a health issue, learn everything you possibly can before departing. You might just find out that the illness that made your child sick has a probability to recur, as a quick Google search will reveal is the case with salmonella.
5. If you have a known health issue, do take the heaviest duty drugs that can help with the condition you can finangle from your doctor. You may save someone's life with them without resorting to the US Navy.
6. Some equipment is essential to safe cruising. Preventers, spinnaker poles, self steering, etc. are essential and you should have them. Green bamboo is not a reliable spinnaker pole, and just as a side note, when it breaks it throws very sharp splinters in all directions, never mind punching a hole in your drifter.
7. Energy dependence on a single source is not a good idea. Either be ready and prepared for no energy at all, or have a backup genset.
8. Carry extra fuel if you are going to be dependent on an engine.
9. If the safety of your family is important to you, at the first sign of a problem, start heading for a destination that can provide assistance. You can always turn around if it is a false emergency.
10. If you have a very small child understand that they are light and will fly around the cabin if it gets really rough. Containment of their little bodies is very important.
11. If you like the idea of blue water, pick your first leg to be something other than the longest land to land distance on the planet. Good time to shake things down.
12. If your spouse is not prepared to manage the vessel all by herself if you fall off, break a leg, have a heart attack or jump off the boat clutching the ship's clock, then you being very irresponsible. Take the time to train her so she doesn't have the fear of something happening to you adding to whatever else she doesn't like about cruising.
13. Only step off your boat when you have to step up into a life raft, which you have to carry, and which has to be inspected and which you and your wife should know how to deploy because you have practiced.

I am sure others can add their own, but these are mine.
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Old 11-04-2014, 18:23   #47
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Basically, the Rebel Heart escapade has shown the sailing community all the things NOT TO DO for a successful voyage. IMHO From what I've seen and read on their own blog.... yes, I reviewed the entire past two years on CF and the rebel Heart blogs, I'd say if one was to do the exact opposite of what they did, one would have a better chance of having a more positive outcome.

Some examples (and there are many):
1. Don't leave with sick kids on medication
2. Have some prior offshore experience
3. Know how you and your spouse will handle stressful situations
4. Have some prior foul weather experience... jeez Force 5... really?
5. Know how to repair one's equipment and have the stuff onboard to do so when the time comes.
6. Bring jerry cans of extra fuel and water.
7. Take sea sick medication before you get sick, not.... 4 days later.
8. Purchase a genuine aluminum whisker pole... not scavenged bamboo.
9. Don't have a set timetable in order to meet unrealistic personal goals.

I can go on and on... but you get the idea. Now that they are indeed back safe and sound via the help of the US Navy and National Guard, I think some actual critique is in order... as they themselves... the crew of Rebel Heart, were not shy of doing to others. Maybe an honest assessment will prevent this nightmare from happening again... enough of the group hug stuff, this voyage could have had a much more tragic ending.

Don't believe me? Read the Rebel Heart blogs and past CF postings for yourself.
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Old 11-04-2014, 18:25   #48
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Why what facts are we missing that are germane to the discussion.

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we seem to have only third hand info here in regard to the vessel,no statement from the people concerned apart from they dont want to talk about the condition of the vessel,or the rescue at the moment.

i just hate to see journalists such as charlie webber put words in their mouths,and second guess their actions,next thing YOU will be quoted in some trashy journal explaing what they did wrong,but what are facts when it comes to a good story
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Old 11-04-2014, 18:30   #49
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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One of Charlotte's complaints about their boat is that it didn't have pressure water. It's really hard for me to imagine in this day and age, and on a boat the size of RH, not having pressure HOT water while sailing with a baby in cloth diapers. Of course this pales in comparison to setting off with a 3 and 1 year-old on a 3000 mile passage with zero offshore experience, but perhaps they wouldn't have gotten as sick if they had had a better plan for the diapers than washing them in the galley sink with cold, foot pumped water, the baby and first mate having recently been diagnosed with salmonella and the 3 year-old with proteus, both found in human feces.

Hot pressure water and a few 5 gallon plastic jerry cans full of diesel, lashed securely to stanchions so they could run the engine in the doldrums and later for hot water, without impacting their main supply.
Sorry, Mr. Weber,

This reads to me as an almost libelous accusation, redolent with assumptions, if not an out an out troll.

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Old 11-04-2014, 18:32   #50
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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we seem to have only third hand info here in regard to the vessel,no statement from the people concerned apart from they dont want to talk about the condition of the vessel,or the rescue at the moment.



i just hate to see journalists such as charlie webber put words in their mouths,and second guess their actions,next thing YOU will be quoted in some trashy journal explaing what they did wrong,but what are facts when it comes to a good story

What I mean atoll. Is unless you or someone else knows something , what we can discuss is that (a) a small child got sick enough to warrant a rescue ( b) certainly Charlotte found offshore more challenging then expected.

The rescue was not triggered by a problem with the boat, so therefore any facts associated with its condition aren't relevant and not needed

We can certainly confine ourselves to the discussion of the child and suitably or such a voyage. Everything else is speculation


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Old 11-04-2014, 18:37   #51
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

I cant help but think of another story of parents taking kids to sea ans granted they were oldwr than the children on RH but Dougal Robertson managed to get hia kids to safety in at first a life raft and then incredibly a hard dink. I xant help but wonder what the frweboard in there was or wasnt more likely. I am sure he never planned on spending that time in the pacific but face it stuff happens. Be it a whale or a sick baby as a parent you do what is necessary for your children. Take then several thousand miles across the pacific in a dink or call for help which the RH did. There is controversy over calling for help among cruisers and in a similar situation without young childten i would not call for help but you must do so as a parent in that case. I see cruisers from allover the world where i am and the ones i admire perhaps envy are those with children what a great way to grow up.

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Old 11-04-2014, 18:37   #52
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Oh, and just for you guys my gun buddies.

I feel the "cruiser" reaction to this has been like the NRA to Newtown.

anyone can tell you a mentally challenged child/ man should not be given select fire weapons as presents. But instead of admitting that; it became "stand and fight"

I'm just glad there are a few if us to be reasonable. I actually have read and seen ZERO of the media coverage or feedback, but I get the distinct impression it is mostly non travelers/ non boaters. Has not made the PBS news hour that I've seen. Nope not Charlie Rose wither (just came one) so people that would never set sail with a 1 and 3 year old with no real offshore experience seem somehow to need to defend Rebel Heart to somehow defend themselves and their lifestyles.

Personally I was in the situation with an 18 month old 5 years ago. I told my wife "the only people who can cross oceans with little kids are the ones that don't know anything and don't know how dangerous it is" I honestly never even considered a serious medical situation, but I believe it was ultimately severe dehydration and heat stroke. We
had sailine IV bags on board. I of course also figured what it would cost to fly my wife and son home from the Galapagos or Marqueas, potentially dockwising the yacht back to the US. I never consider abandonment as I was equipped and prepared.

Sailing as a couple can be challenging in difficult and tuff conditions. Add one little kid, nearly impossible. Can't get much sleep during the day, wife is up doing child care all day. did a few 4 day passages in the Caribbean and our judgement was it's just not worth it. No real watch schedule is possible. Add a second tiny child with no extra crew???? Your f***ng nuts!

We had previously cruised from Ft Lauderdale to Brisbane 2 years prior on a different smaller yacht.


The real difference of course, is the NRA has real power. If there were to be some type of crazy law to come out if this; there isn't a damn thing any of us could do about it.
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Old 11-04-2014, 18:40   #53
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
What I mean atoll. Is unless you or someone else knows something , what we can discuss is that (a) a small child got sick enough to warrant a rescue ( b) certainly Charlotte found offshore more challenging then expected.

The rescue was not triggered by a problem with the boat, so therefore any facts associated with its condition aren't relevant and not needed

We can certainly confine ourselves to the discussion of the child and suitably or such a voyage. Everything else is speculation


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if you look at charlie webers posts to date you will notice a pattern,he by his own admission is a journalist/writer,,so i think you are being trolled for a story,that i am sure will have a negative spin .

nothing new but shame to see the forum used in this way,leading to more vitriol in the media
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Old 11-04-2014, 18:42   #54
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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Sorry, Mr. Weber,

This reads to me as an almost libelous accusation, redolent with assumptions, if not an out an out troll.

Ann
Ann, the NY Times story may be wrong, but they do quote Charlotte's blog confirming this, so I think it a bit unfair to accuse someone of trolling.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/08/us...parenting.html
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Old 11-04-2014, 18:46   #55
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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if you look at charlie webers posts to date you will notice a pattern,he by his own admission is a journalist/writer,,so i think you are being trolled for a story,that i am sure will have a negative spin .

nothing new but shame to see the forum used in this way,leading to more vitriol in the media
Could be true. I will re-read my interaction with him.
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Old 11-04-2014, 18:53   #56
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

The thing I dislike on CF in relation to abandoning boats has been the underlying current in many threads and many posts on many abandoning, that somehow , you failed as a skipper or as a " man" even because you pressed the red button and you and your crew got pulled off ( by whatever process). Cf ers have taken strips off people defending such actions. ( like me )

Then you get the nutters complaining about rescue costs or even more bizarrely, somehow expecting you should pay for your mistakes with your life or your crews life. ( the take your consequences group )

Funnily compared to other threads these voices seem quiet in regards this rescue, thankfully

Equally we will likely never know the thought processes behind why RH or any skipper presses the red button. What was the actual dynamic at the moment. Even when people recount such events they themselves often can't shed any light.

again that's not relevant, a decision was arrived at, it was justified in Eric's mind and it was activated and thankfully with a successful outcome.

Hence such speculation is rather fruitless.

However what we can debate is our own views on the suitability of such voyages in such circumstances. Out of that comes some useful debate.

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Old 11-04-2014, 18:54   #57
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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Could be true. I will re-read my interaction with him.
just check his profile and all posts by charlie weber,it is pretty clear he is a troll for one of the national agony fabricators,looking for a new angle to publish
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Old 11-04-2014, 18:55   #58
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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if you look at charlie webers posts to date you will notice a pattern,he by his own admission is a journalist/writer,,so i think you are being trolled for a story,that i am sure will have a negative spin .



nothing new but shame to see the forum used in this way,leading to more vitriol in the media

How do you mean , is CF getting somehow used ? , where and by who and why on this particular rescue are we suddenly concerned.

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Old 11-04-2014, 18:58   #59
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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All kids have to pay the price of their parents bad judgment, and all parents have bad judgment from time to time. Some are worse than others, of course.

I would seriously question your assertion, though, that taking minors on a crossing is bad judgment. I don't think it is at all.

Letting your kids grow up to think that taking any risks, not matter the rewards is a bad idea... Now that might be poor judgment.
Our son was perhaps three months old when he got really sick. On land, at home.

I still vividly recall having to sign the piece of paper that the hospital gave me, which said, in essence, if the spinal tap they claim they had to do to confirm their diagnosis went tits up, tough sh*t.

My hand still shakes when i have to sign those darned disclaimers.

From everything that has been written so far, we still have to wait to hear from Eric (with a C not a K!).

And for the "get experience before you set off across an ocean" crowd, isn't there ALWAYS a FIRST time?
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Old 11-04-2014, 19:01   #60
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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How do you mean , is CF getting somehow used ? , where and by who and why on this particular rescue are we suddenly concerned.

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look at his statistics,every one of his posts is a troll,inflamatory,and not nice! making accusations against a member,even worse the member is not here to defend himself.

definitly gets 3 points on the not nice rule!,or isthat not why we have rules?
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