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Old 17-04-2014, 09:55   #571
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I think the Munchausen idea and kids not being sick is just BS.
but I do think that a group of things going wrong can make someone want to get off, no matter what. And that decision is regretted immediately. I also think that upon making the decision then any chance of saving the boat is stymied.

My thoughts would be these situational things were the group:
Child illness,
Seasickness by most on board
Small shaft leak
Lack of self steering in not strong enough AP and not competent enough wind vane.
Weather that would not moderate.


I think that 5 points alone could be enough to make the decision to get the child off (one decision) and abandon the boat (a different decision).
If the weather calmed down, the children and mother had gotten off, and Eric had confidence in the boat, then onward journey would have been fine sailing solo.
but when it is happening thats not what one thinks. People think: Get me the hell out of here!

Other pieces of information such as the fuel load do not equate... He has solar and wind geny so fuel usage would have been lower, and charging by engine at low revs doest use much fuel.

One problem was where to go. Marquesas would have meant the next stage would Charlotte been back on board? But if she had said, before rescue, she wouldn't get back on board the why would Eric go there? Hawaii doesnt work for me as an alternate port either in that it wouldn't have been thought of, and still doesn't fix whats going on next.

All in all, I think the answers are in the obvious, not in the bizarre. And I think all the information is there... We just need to 'see' it

If this is understandable, then its understandable why others would make the same decisions, and why Eric doesnt want to talk about it.



Mark
Sounds plausible.
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Old 17-04-2014, 10:00   #572
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Really?

Tolerance, or is hypocracy the flavour of the day?

QUOTE Atoll -- other thread:

"Nobody deserves to lose their boat,no matter what may have been said in the past.. shame on you for opening fresh wounds. have you no compassion man,this could easily have happened to you sailing with children"

"better to try and fail,than to not try at all....easy to criticise from the safety of a land based computer terminal."

"lessons to be learnt...it is easy to dream,but turning dreams into reality requires money in this day and age,under funded projects require 50% luck and 50% fortitude."

Apply your same criteria to Eric.
Monkey Man,

I believe that was a very early posting on this thread by Atoll, before other shortcomings by the Rebel Heart crew were revealed by their blog history, and the "lurking" behavior which has gone on by RH of the CF forum rather than responding or explaining what actually happened has come to pass. Because we don't have the RH side of the story, one can only judge the series of events by the National guard news conference, blog postings, and photos provided by Charlotte on her blog.

Atoll is not suggesting that bad karma caused the episode, but rather that "one who lives in a glass house, should beware of throwing stones." I'd equate posting all of one's personal thoughts and actions on a public forum and personal blog as "living in a glass house." I don't see any hypocrisy.
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Old 17-04-2014, 10:11   #573
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
I suppose one alternative for others who want to cruise dependent on electronically powered systems is to bite the bullet and purchase a small gas powered genset as a backup or primary charge source. Running the main just to charge batteries is a pretty big mismatch of potential vs. output as well as really, really fuel inefficient. A 2kw Honda will burn for over 9 hours on one gallon of gas. It's a pain to find room for them, although they will fit in a lazarette and 4 jerry cans will give you weeks of run time.
I took one on a trip a few years ago and it turned out to be a real life-saver (well, metaphorically speaking, anyway). I'd not hesitate if it weren't for the gas-powered part. It'd be nice to dispense with the need to carry another (dangerous) fuel along. When will a propane-powered one come along?
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Old 17-04-2014, 10:14   #574
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by leightonyachts View Post
I think if I was to compare sailing offshore and especially crossing oceans is like a person climbing mount Everest or hiking to the south pole. You really need to not only be prepared and train well, but you need a fighting instinct, a determination to press on no matter what happens.

When people think of wanting to sail across oceans, it sometimes becomes a romantic dream to them, instead of the reality of what they may face by actually trying it.

To survive it is 80% mental, if you don't have it mentally, it may be not something you should try doing. Preparing by always sailing in fair weather is not good enough. One must experience some nasty situations, get used to the feel of the boat surfing down waves and navigating through heavy seas before ever trying to cross oceans, as sure enough you will go through it sooner or later.

When I get into heavy weather, my mind goes right to the challenge of it. I say to the sea, come on, is that all you got! and I CHARGE ON!

Hats off to all who have challenged the sea and returned to talk about it!
The above that I put in bold font is something I would plan to do if I ever return to cruising with the intention of crossing an ocean. I call it the Laura Dekker method of dialing into your boat. As a very young girl she kept going out in increasingly challenging conditions just to see how her boat would do. At 13 she crossed the North Sea to England and back in a 26' boat.
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Old 17-04-2014, 10:15   #575
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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I took one on a trip a few years ago and it turned out to be a real life-saver (well, metaphorically speaking, anyway). I'd not hesitate if it weren't for the gas-powered part. It'd be nice to dispense with the need to carry another (dangerous) fuel along. When will a propane-powered one come along?
They sell them, either already adapted to propane or you can buy a kit.
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Old 17-04-2014, 10:16   #576
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post

Atoll is not suggesting that bad karma caused the episode, but rather that "one who lives in a glass house, should beware of throwing stones."
and to those that point:

"let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

Say, whats that in the palm of your hand behind your back? That ain't no coconut.
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Old 17-04-2014, 10:17   #577
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

I don't think anyone here is saying that Eric did everything right. Who does? I also don't think that we are apt to 'learn' anything based upon an 'analysis' of what happened here (except perhaps for those who are considering sailing with infant children - and that caution has surely already been brought home).

I do think, however, that we can learn a great deal about some members of this forum based upon their posts in this thread (for example, suggesting the baby was not sick in spite of the statements of the Coast Guard confirming the same????). How many expressed any sympathy for them and for their loss? How many would be prepared to make the same callous comments to them face to face, rather than when hiding behind their computers? Do others really see the fact that Eric himself made similar (inappropraite, IMO) posts with respect to the loss of someone else's boat as a justification for doing the same now? After doing so, do they also think that it would be 'karma' for themselves if they were forced to abandon ship and lose their own home in future? Or do they think that this could never happen to them as they never make mistakes, or an incorrect assessment of the risks when undertaking a particular voyage?

Yes, I have learned a great deal from this thread about various members of this forum. I have also learned that I would be a fool to post details concerning any upcoming voyage that I may undertake. That I would be a fool to post any details about any problems that I may encounter when underway. That I would be a fool to lay out in the sun because the vultures are circling.

Brad
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Old 17-04-2014, 10:48   #578
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

The fact of the matter in my mind anyway is this. I cannot be critical of Eric or his decisions because I was not there. I am sure he could have made better decisions as any of us would when things go wrong. Its the coulda, woulda, shoulda thing.

Secondly, I just take whatever I can from a situation like this and learn as much as I can from it so I can apply some things to my own experience.

I do not need to know all the facts, as we could never know anyway. Only Eric and his family knows and I am not one to demand it out of them.

I have learned a great deal from others and will continue to do so, but most of the time it is just observations and do not expect for them to sit down with me and tell me all the details. Besides that, every situation is different.

Even if we knew all the facts, would it really help us from getting into the same situation? I don't think so. As we can all agree I am sure, Every moment on the ocean is different and demands a different approach and reaction. All we can do is make a best estimate, hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, and go for it!
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Old 17-04-2014, 10:54   #579
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I shortened your quote.

I think your plan is a good one, err on the side of caution is what I take from it. One thing you should/might add for additional safety and/or comfort would be to add 1-2 additional qualified crew members to take on the additional watches and help out. They can usually be hired through a good professional delivery company for around 350 pounds each total for the delivery. Guys and gals who're working towards their captains hours whilst you remain in control.
We're not doing a delivery...we'd be leaving for five years! I would consider crew on an occasional basis, but not just to get to Halifax.

Part of the reason to wait until our son is in his early teens is that he would be expected to do dog watches in the daytime on passage, so it is not just a couples' cruise plus a smelly adolescent.
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Old 17-04-2014, 10:56   #580
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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We're not doing a delivery...we'd be leaving for five years! I would consider crew on an occasional basis, but not just to get to Halifax.

Part of the reason to wait until our son is in his early teens is that he would be expected to do dog watches in the daytime on passage, so it is not just a couples' cruise plus a smelly adolescent.
Just be sure he knows that BO is slightly less offensive than covering it up with AXE.
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Old 17-04-2014, 11:10   #581
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Alchemy, you will have no problems this side of lightening bolt anomalies you can't predict or prepare for. In saying that, I assume you have cruised with your long suffering wife offshore and enjoy each others company as well as the adventure. With that, you can pretty much handle most of what can happen, but you already know that because you have what can hardly buy - experience.
Thank you, but as the boat is steel and in essence one big Faraday cage, I'm hoping to avoid most lightning problems. Galvanic isolation is a separate issue!

My wife may suffer, but she's my equal as a boat handler and if she weren't, we would stick to to the Great Lakes and have a more predictable life. Thanks for the encouragement.
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Old 17-04-2014, 11:15   #582
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Actually, there's this: The Strange Last Voyage of Donald Crowhurst: Nicholas Tomalin, Ron Hall: 0639785802594: Amazon.com: Books

which is fascinating, btw.

I agree though that in the case of RH, there's not much of a book here.
Then there's this:Volumes of Salt: Black Wave: Leaving seamanship in the dark

It's one of the very few books I have thrown across the room in sheer exasperation.
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Old 17-04-2014, 11:35   #583
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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I took one on a trip a few years ago and it turned out to be a real life-saver (well, metaphorically speaking, anyway). I'd not hesitate if it weren't for the gas-powered part. It'd be nice to dispense with the need to carry another (dangerous) fuel along. When will a propane-powered one come along?
I would prefer a diesel option within two kilos of the current Honda 2000. I don't like propane's ability to flow invisibly into bilges, and I already carry a lot of diesel.

Until then, I love and make good use of my Honda 2000...even with gasoline to carry.
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Old 17-04-2014, 11:36   #584
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Thank you. Excellent documentary and almost as good as the book. The sight of Joshua with her tall mast and cloud of sails handled by one of the world's most competent sailors contrasting with the stubby and leaking multihull piloted by the haunted Crowhurst is pitiable.
Of course, Moitessier lost more than one boat (three was it?), including Joshua. So, there is that.
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Old 17-04-2014, 11:37   #585
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Just be sure he knows that BO is slightly less offensive than covering it up with AXE.
He'll be rubbing himself with a dead mahi-mahi before I let that poison aboard.
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