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Old 16-04-2014, 16:53   #496
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by SVNeko View Post

And a separate point, what's all this cr@p about blogs being fiction? Its pretty easy to just explain what happened. Folks are looking for what should be pretty simple, easily remembered facts. Not that anyone is entitled to them, but excusing misinformation just because it is on a blog is ridiculous. Differing stories are not "perception" or literary license. They would be lies.

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That theory was only advanced by one of the usual blowhards, so I doubt anyone living in Realityville would think this. People reveal who they are on blogs. Sometimes, and perhaps frequently, it is an image of self they want portrayed that better conforms to their own heroic self image than what they really are. Still informative, if not always in the way people intend.

Do you have a link on the Donald Crowhurst documentary? One of my favorite books, as the story is so very sad.
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Old 16-04-2014, 16:58   #497
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Do you have a link on the Donald Crowhurst documentary? One of my favorite books, as the story is so very sad.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/deep-water/

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Old 16-04-2014, 17:17   #498
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

I think the Munchausen idea and kids not being sick is just BS.
but I do think that a group of things going wrong can make someone want to get off, no matter what. And that decision is regretted immediately. I also think that upon making the decision then any chance of saving the boat is stymied.

My thoughts would be these situational things were the group:
Child illness,
Seasickness by most on board
Small shaft leak
Lack of self steering in not strong enough AP and not competent enough wind vane.
Weather that would not moderate.


I think that 5 points alone could be enough to make the decision to get the child off (one decision) and abandon the boat (a different decision).
If the weather calmed down, the children and mother had gotten off, and Eric had confidence in the boat, then onward journey would have been fine sailing solo.
but when it is happening thats not what one thinks. People think: Get me the hell out of here!

Other pieces of information such as the fuel load do not equate... He has solar and wind geny so fuel usage would have been lower, and charging by engine at low revs doest use much fuel.

One problem was where to go. Marquesas would have meant the next stage would Charlotte been back on board? But if she had said, before rescue, she wouldn't get back on board the why would Eric go there? Hawaii doesnt work for me as an alternate port either in that it wouldn't have been thought of, and still doesn't fix whats going on next.

All in all, I think the answers are in the obvious, not in the bizarre. And I think all the information is there... We just need to 'see' it

If this is understandable, then its understandable why others would make the same decisions, and why Eric doesnt want to talk about it.



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Old 16-04-2014, 17:37   #499
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
I can't waste my time reading and debating what was right and what was wrong about this entire "project" of Eric and his family.

I am struck by the fact that he for some reason has chosen to remain silent, but reads the threads about his misadventure. To me this is very bizarre behavior on his part. What is served by people discussing what happened when they don't KNOW what happened because the information is second and third hand coming out in bits and pieces... and Eric not stating the facts?

I am wondering if the ocean crossing was not such a great idea and perhaps cruising coastal or Island hoping would have been more prudent??? If some long passages were required why not get help to the long ocean passages and then have the family fly to the boat and do "island hoping or coastal cruising?

I only have questions and no opinions about this adventure.

Yeah when I sail offshore, my wife so far has flown to meet me at the destination. This is something we have discussed and agreed that untill she is ready I will not try and convince her to go, but she likes to sail Puget sound with me and we go out farther every time she goes.

I know if I am patient with her she may go offshore with me, but if not. I am still OK with it
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Old 16-04-2014, 17:48   #500
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Any news on how the baby is doing ?
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Old 16-04-2014, 17:52   #501
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Mark,

There is wisdom in your words.

Analyzing someone else's decisions during an event like this requires way more information than we will ever get. Even a formal legal inquiry would not pull together enough information (and that isn't going to happen anyway). It's likely that the people who were there can't even tell you all the facts needed to analyze it to the point where you can be sure what you would do. There are many details that can't be easily explained in words because they involve emotions, events long since past going back to childhood and subconscious inputs that all go into a highly complex decision making process.

The idea that we who weren't even there can somehow learn how to avoid reaching the decision to leave the boat by knowing just a few more facts in this case is ludicrous in the extreme. Even if you knew every fact about the boat, the illness, skill of crew, weather, etc. there is no way you could decide what you would do. Anyone who says they know what they would do in any specific case is deluding themselves. There's a reason they say you have to "walk a mile in another man's shoes" before you can know why he does a certain thing. And in this case you can't possibly walk that mile so there is no way to know.

Can we learn something from this? Maybe, but I think any such lessons are already well known. For that reason, I see no need for Eric or any of his crew to try to explain what happened. If they want to do it for their own reasons I have no issue with that. But those clamoring for explanations are not doing the CF community a service even though I am sure they truly believe they are.
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Old 16-04-2014, 18:16   #502
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
I think the Munchausen idea and kids not being sick is just BS.
but I do think that a group of things going wrong can make someone want to get off, no matter what. And that decision is regretted immediately. I also think that upon making the decision then any chance of saving the boat is stymied.

My thoughts would be these situational things were the group:
Child illness,
Seasickness by most on board
Small shaft leak
Lack of self steering in not strong enough AP and not competent enough wind vane.
Weather that would not moderate.


I think that 5 points alone could be enough to make the decision to get the child off (one decision) and abandon the boat (a different decision).
If the weather calmed down, the children and mother had gotten off, and Eric had confidence in the boat, then onward journey would have been fine sailing solo.
but when it is happening thats not what one thinks. People think: Get me the hell out of here!

All in all, I think the answers are in the obvious, not in the bizarre. And I think all the information is there... We just need to 'see' it

If this is understandable, then its understandable why others would make the same decisions, and why Eric doesnt want to talk about it.

Mark
This is a very good post Mark. I can't make the jump to anything bizarre. My situation would be almost the same as Eric's if my wife was on board, sick, and our child was also. It wouldn't have mattered if I called for help because she would have one way or another. And if assistance showed up and I said I'm staying while you all leave, well, she would all right - permanently.

I think the fact that Charlotte is suggesting they look at another RH is encouraging. They have learned a difficult lesson and in the future will be more mentally prepared. I wish the family good luck in the future.

And with that I've got to cancel my subscription to this thread. It's been really interesting.
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Old 16-04-2014, 18:26   #503
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
This is a very good post Mark. I can't make the jump to anything bizarre. My situation would be almost the same as Eric's if my wife was on board, sick, and our child was also. It wouldn't have mattered if I called for help because she would have one way or another. And if assistance showed up and I said I'm staying while you all leave, well, she would all right - permanently.

I think the fact that Charlotte is suggesting they look at another RH is encouraging. They have learned a difficult lesson and in the future will be more mentally prepared. I wish the family good luck in the future.

And with that I've got to cancel my subscription to this thread. It's been really interesting.
Don't cancel that subscription yet, because the statement ..."I think the fact that Charlotte is suggesting they look at another RH is encouraging" is something I'm curious about. That was the impression I got from her last blog...."Rebel Heart will be back. Just give us some time.

Sincerely,

Charlotte"


Do you have another source or was it based on the above comment?
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Old 16-04-2014, 18:29   #504
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

What I would love to see as a result of this near tragedy is some sort of site standard response compiled by a panel of experienced boaters aimed at dreamer green newbies inquiring about buying a boat and sailing off into the blue. Some of the posters in this category are obviously clueless. Instead of a mixed bag of encouragement and maybe some caution, a well thought out plan of education and acquired experience and reminder of what can happen in the middle of an ocean and how to be properly prepared.
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Old 16-04-2014, 18:36   #505
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
Don't cancel that subscription yet, because the statement ..."I think the fact that Charlotte is suggesting they look at another RH is encouraging" is something I'm curious about. That was the impression I got from her last blog...."Rebel Heart will be back. Just give us some time.

Sincerely,

Charlotte"


Do you have another source or was it based on the above comment?
here,last paragraph,
together with pictures of a very healthy looking baby,and someone obviously handsteering

Rebel Heart - Charlotte's Blog - Overwhelmed, Shocked,*Saddened
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Old 16-04-2014, 18:41   #506
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Who's hand steering. In the dark? Don't see it. In the other. All I see is someone's ass.
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:28   #507
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Other pieces of information such as the fuel load do not equate... He has solar and wind geny so fuel usage would have been lower, and charging by engine at low revs doest use much fuel.



From the blog:




"It will take a huge load off of my mind to be "in the trades", or at least in a 24 hour wind pattern that we can bank on throughout the night. Bobbing like a cork is no fun, my light air sail is totally unrepairable, and diesel is worth its weight in gold."




"We've only burned five gallons of diesel so far in this whole affair, knowing that since we carry so little (30, total) there really isn't a lot of fudge factor. Every drop and every minute needs to be carefully allocated and there hasn't been anywhere worth motoring towards, so sitting with johnsons-in-hand we do. In my defense this is my first ocean crossing and I'm usually a much better weather router, but I definitely screwed up the assessment on this one a bit and have been getting the consequences rammed into my respective orifices."



I think he'd have been a whole lot better off if he'd listened to the advice given to him by several here, and properly repaired or replaced his fuel tank to the boats intended capacity of 90 gallons. He could also have carried some large panga tanks on deck, or enough Gerry cans to make up at least 50 gallons. Attempting this crossing with fuel capacity reduced to 1/3 of the boats designed load was unwise, IMHO. He seems to agree, given the quotes above.
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:31   #508
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
That theory was only advanced by one of the usual blowhards, so I doubt anyone living in Realityville would think this..
Time for a little education.
There I was anchored in the Barra de Navidad, Mexico lagoon enjoying the day when my cell phone rang. I answered like allways seeing if someone had a water maker questions or was ready to buy....but...I was stunned when....hey wait...I already told this story in the following Blog Post about FAKE Blogs back in 2012.

So see, this "usual blowhard", as called by the usual personal attacker type of poster (Mr Delfin) seems to have some first hand experience with reality. The truth is out there...are you ready for it...or will you attack it?


Is this Blog Real | SV THIRD DAY


Is this Blog Real
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03/30/2012, Hard to Believe But Fake Blogs are Out There!



Back on September 30, 2007 I made my first Bog post entitled "All Cleaned up...and Ready to go in 31 Days!" as we were getting ready to make our first trip to Mexico with the 2007 Baja Ha-ha rally. Since then I've posted a mind numbing 1081 Blog posts and you can view the complete
list of Blog Posts here
if you have the stomach for it. As a kid that absolutely hated reading and writing, my Jr. High teachers would have never guessed that I could even read a 1000 page book, so the thought that I could have formed enough coherent sentences to fill a 1000 page book while living on a boat in Mexico would have brought them (and maybe even my parents) to laughter. Well, I'll admit maybe some of my sentences are only boarder-line coherent at best and my spelling, sentence structure, and use of punctuation may give the impression that I never did successfully graduate from Jr. High, but there has never been any doubt that what I write about is real. Real in a sense that I write about what I'm thinking and feeling regarding this Cruising Lifestyle, which might explain why food plays such a prominent role in my posts, after all, I'm Italian and food is after all life! Is everything you read out there on cruising blogs real?

I have no doubt that the vast majority of cruising blogs out there are indeed real and I've meet the crews in anchorages and exchanged emails with them all the time; however, about two weeks ago, I was solicited by a web marketing firm over the phone and what they were trying to sell me surprised and shocked me. So much so, that it's taken me a few weeks to actually process it and decide how to talk about it on my blog, and even if I should talk about it, but here I go, you know my decision. I've told a few other cruisers about it and they also had the look of shock and disbelief on their face. To cut right to the chase and spit it out, there are cruising blogs out there that you could be reading and following that are fake, along with product reviews on many of the sailing and cruising sites! There is no cruising family or couple; there is no boat, no real crew, no real landfalls, no real experiences, and no real adventure. The only real thing about the blog is the products they talk about as must have cruising gear and the links they provide to the company's products!

As a business owner, with my cell phone and email listed on our Cruise RO Water and Power website for sales and customer support, I get email and phone solicitations galore, 7 days a week. They are easy to spot within the first 5 seconds of the call and I usually start talking Spanish to them and they disappear or hit the spam button if it's an email. But for some reason this lady sounded different, like she was a long lost high school friend, so I kept listening as she described this "fabulous opportunity for me to increase sales". As she went on and on (phone salesmen know to not pause during their pitch for you to interrupt and boot them off) about what her company did and why I should buy her services. I was at first confused, which grew into disbelief, and then to anger at the outright dishonesty and fraud of what I was being told was the latest and greatest web marketing approach.

The basic advertising package would cost $1250 per month, which by the way is about the cost of a page magazine ad in a popular cruising magazine, as a FYI. I would then write 3 blog post reviews per month for the products I wanted to sell and then they would place the "gear reviews" on what she called their "network of promotional blogs". At this point, I was still a bit confused as to what exactly I was being sold and what a "promotional blog" was, so I asked how cruisers would let someone pose as them and post fake gear reviews on their blogs. Then as she explained, the whole ugly details came to light, as she told me how their advertising system worked. The marketing company set-up and maintained a series of cruising blogs on what she called the major sites: sailblogs, yatchblogs, blogspot and a few more common sites where cruisers host their blogs. They don't just do this for cruising gear and blogs, but she rattled off an impressive list of other types of blogs that targeted products from home entertainment systems to camping gear that they do what she called "active user product placements".

But wait, there's MORE I was told, I should consider their "Gold Package" where their staff would not just help me write fake product reviews for posting on the fake websites, but they would also provide me with a critical value added service. There are dozens of various sailing, cruiser, and boating related chat rooms on the internet. If I subscribed to their "Gold Package" for an additional $250/mo, they would use their web searching software to do a daily search of the top 30 cruising/sailing related chat rooms for the key words around our products and for any mention of our Company name. When found, they would then notify me via email with a link to the site and I could write a fake testimonial to send back to them for posting under one of their anonymous site member names that they maintain. These would cost me $25ea, but as she said, would results in lots of positive word of mouth feedback.

Are you getting pissed off yet? Well, I sure am, just rehashing the phone conversation.

As she sensed I wasn't ready to give a credit card to start the marketing campaign, I was told how this is standard operating practice on the internet today and that I shouldn't feel bad about using the latest in marketing technology to sell my products. After all, she said, the goal of a marketing campaign is to sell product and their approach was a proven winner, why wouldn't I want to participate in what everyone else was doing? I told her that we had already maxed out our advertising budget for the next few months and then she of course wanted to call me back in June to see if I wanted to start a campaign, she hung up and I sat there stunned.

It doesn't surprise me that there are people out there willing to do unethical things for money, heck that has been around since man himself, but what got to me and I've been having a hard time accepting is just how easy it is to pull off lies and deceit with the anonymous powers of the internet. As more and more of us turn to the internet for information, do we know WHO is providing that information and presenting themselves as the unbiased authority on the subject? If I now have to research the person making an "unbiased" product review on a blog to make sure it isn't a bogus company plant, how harder is it for me, and all of us, to get good information? When we looked up a word in the Webster's Dictionary you could be pretty darn confident that the meaning you found was true without spin or slant. But try looking up a word on the internet today that could have any type of controversy around it and you won't just find a definition, but multiple sites all giving their own spin on the word. I'm not quite sure what the take home message is behind the realization that anything you read online needs to be approached with skepticism, other than that obvious point!

We have several "real" cruisers out there with our water makers that have at one point or another posted about our product on their blogs and I'm happy to say all of them have been positive. But on the flip side, is it that much of a stretch to think that someone willing to post a fake review (or call it what it is-a LIE) about their own product wouldn't be willing to make a negative review (Lie) about a competitor to gain an advantage? Once you have accepted "the Lie" as just a marketing tool that "everyone else" is doing, what stops not just the positive Lies about you, but the more affective negative Lies about the competition? And since one negative product review is said to wash away 10 positive reviews, isn't it going to be more affective to Lie about the competition than to Lie about your own product? The reason political campaigns run negative ads is for the simple reason, that they work.

So in a world where Lies seem to rule the day from Politics to Marketing, what is there to do? Well if I really had that answer maybe I'd be sitting on the Supreme Court today deciding if Obamacare is legal or illegal, rather than floating on a boat rocking gently at anchor in the Barra de Navidad lagoon, getting ready to host a "blender party" tonight at 6PM aboard THIRD DAY. But on second thought, maybe I'm closer to the answer than I think; which is why I'm here and not there. Could that be? Na-forget I said that, remember, I'm just a Cruising Bozo not even smart enough to jump on the fake cruising blog band wagon, so what do I know.
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:37   #509
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
From the blog:




"It will take a huge load off of my mind to be "in the trades", or at least in a 24 hour wind pattern that we can bank on throughout the night. Bobbing like a cork is no fun, my light air sail is totally unrepairable, and diesel is worth its weight in gold."




"We've only burned five gallons of diesel so far in this whole affair, knowing that since we carry so little (30, total) there really isn't a lot of fudge factor. Every drop and every minute needs to be carefully allocated and there hasn't been anywhere worth motoring towards, so sitting with johnsons-in-hand we do. In my defense this is my first ocean crossing and I'm usually a much better weather router, but I definitely screwed up the assessment on this one a bit and have been getting the consequences rammed into my respective orifices."



I think he'd have been a whole lot better off if he'd listened to the advice given to him by several here, and properly repaired or replaced his fuel tank to the boats intended capacity of 90 gallons. He could also have carried some large panga tanks on deck, or enough Gerry cans to make up at least 50 gallons. Attempting this crossing with fuel capacity reduced to 1/3 of the boats designed load was unwise, IMHO. He seems to agree, given the quotes above.
I'm not so sure that the "designed capacity" has anything to do with it. My boat's about the same size and has a 30 gallon designed capacity. I do, however, agree that if you're going to cross the ITCZ with a young family on a small boat, it would be very nice to be able to get your ass down to the trades faster. More diesel would have markedly improved the mood on board.

In this case, of course, they were rescued due to a sick child, not a grumpy spouse. If they had been motoring, they would have been more like 1500 miles from land and even harder to reach for rescue when their child got sick.
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:44   #510
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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So see, this "usual blowhard", as called by the usual personal attacker type of poster (Mr Delfin) seems to have some first hand experience with reality. The truth is out there...are you ready for it...or will you attack it?

Now, now, Rich, calm down and don't be so self-centered. Just because someone refers to an obnoxious blowhard it doesn't necessarily mean they are talking about you.
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