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Old 12-04-2014, 20:20   #136
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Ann,

With all due respect, I don't see how any of this is relevant to the discussion. What should it matter, the kind of boat one has or how one chooses to spend money as it relates to cruising safety? All I suggested in my first post were nine items:

1. Don't leave with sick kids on medication
2. Have some prior offshore experience
3. Know how you and your spouse will handle stressful situations
4. Have some prior foul weather experience.
5. Know how to repair one's equipment and have the stuff onboard to do so when the time comes.
6. Bring jerry cans of extra fuel and water.
7. Take sea sick medication before you get sick, not.... 4 days later.
8. Purchase a genuine aluminum whisker pole... not scavenged bamboo.
9. Don't have a set timetable in order to meet unrealistic personal goals.

The total cost for jerry cans are about $10 each and the cost for a 5 gallon bucket to wash diapers in, rather than the galley sink... is about $5 at the Home Depot. Hardly enough to break the bank of most cruising couples. The rest of my suggestions relate to experience and common sense.

Ken Onassis


Lol! Ken Onassis!


This makes me desire to broach the same issue. I think there may be some confusion on the forum as to who is or isn't a tycoon. Boat size or type is NOT a good indicator IMHO. Eric chose to "go small, go now", as so many suggest. Others here on CF have made different choices. I doubt Ken or I make all that much more than Eric. We just chose to wait a decade or two longer than he did, save up, buy a bigger boat, and outfit it thoroughly. Many of us are still slaving away on refit projects he chose to skip. He got to go sailing now, for sure, but at what cost? It certainly remains to be seen whether my approach will have a different outcome than his, but right now I don't regret working up to a bigger boat, waiting for the kids to get older, taking time to really get a handle on home schooling, getting the wife and kids more time on the water, and getting really truly equipped with first rate gear. It's not a question of income necessarily, but more a question of priorities. Many of my friends bought houses, we bought a boat instead. No house for us. It amazes me how many assume you have both, and three cars in the garage too. That's not the case for all of us. And, for the record, that level of prep for long term cruising includes things like career choices. My wife became an RN to allow her to be a better cruiser. More income, easier to get work abroad, crucial medical skills on the crew. Starting some saline IV, IV antibiotics, and much more serious injuries and illnesses are within our ability to handle. I would not put to sea with a crew member I was afraid to start an IV on, such as a baby (you start IV on their heads!). We all have different priorities and comfort levels with risk. Some of us are much more concerned with risk mitigation than others. And that's as it should be.
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:30   #137
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

We over here now that the other thread is closed

Mr Onassis, I am sure I've been labeled as being on RH side, and I am. But since this thread is all about learning(commence the eye rolling) I'll try to contribute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post

1. Don't leave with sick kids on medication
Excellent advice. If this is directed at RH, can you link to the statement by parents that the baby was on meds or sick when they left


2. Have some prior offshore experience
Eric is a licensed captain,but do see a good discussion about kids and heading off on long passages

3. Know how you and your spouse will handle stressful situations
again, excellent observation. Don't see any indication that RH wife wasn't handling the stress

4. Have some prior foul weather experience.
Excellent advice. Where is it posted Eric and Charlotte don't have foul weather experience?

5. Know how to repair one's equipment and have the stuff onboard to do so when the time comes.
bingo again, great point to future cruisers. Where does it say Eric or Charlotte couldn't repair anything?


6. Bring jerry cans of extra fuel and water.
how much fuel is enough? I always found ten more gallons than you have is the right amount. Did they run out of water? If fuel was a main issue, the rescuers would of just given them some.

7. Take sea sick medication before you get sick, not.... 4 days later.
Seasickness is a bugger, yes, I see your point, but also doesn't seem related to evac

8. Purchase a genuine aluminum whisker pole... not scavenged bamboo.
Can I use mind boggling on what that has to do with anything?

9. Don't have a set timetable in order to meet unrealistic personal goals.
Very good point, many times we get in trouble due to trying to stick to a schedule, did you read somewhere this was the case with RH?



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Old 12-04-2014, 20:33   #138
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

Rebel posted for years his plan. I do not recall anyone raising a flag of concern. Maybe even experienced cruisers encouraged him.
Lesson is know what you are doing. Don't let forum posters encourage you. Listen to that inner voice. Like the Iongest trip we have done is 4 days but....
That's a flag. Big flag.
Cf looked like rebel cheerleaders with all the best posters chiming in and supporting. Now it looks like the majority is questioning if this was good.
Don't listen to anyone cheering you on. Listen to those that are questioning. Might be a nay sayer but listen. Might be a little voice in your head. Pay attention and don't get led on because you really want something. Step back if it really feels right you will go.
I have sat in harbors with exasperated crew. I am not going. Sorry it's not right I don't trust the forecast let me buy you a train ticket. I am not going out with you or in these conditions. That's hard but you will know when it's right. Even if cf encouraged you don't go unless it is right.


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Old 12-04-2014, 20:33   #139
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Eric chose to "go small, go now", as so many suggest.
If you go to Erics profile and select previous posts and find his first post in 2006 you will see he bought Rebel Heart in 2005.

Thats not 'go now'.

I bought mine in 2008 and have whacked 35,000 miles on it.

So Eric has had 9 years to clock up miles in prep of his circumnav.

I'm not critisizing his choices, but one can't possibly say he was in the go small go now group.



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Old 12-04-2014, 20:35   #140
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
Salty Monky I was not cruising with my family in the North Atlantic in winter it was summer and I was an officer on a 311 ft USCG cutter during a rescue of five souls aboard a sailing vessel with a professional captain and able crew. You should also be informed that there is no such thing as an absolutely safe passage across a large stretch of ocean. Weather aside there is fire-water intrusion-collision even with whales and disease. So when you are out there you are really out there. So in like the situation I described above an entire ship of coasties had to risk ship and life to rescue five adventurous sailors. So From that prospective I see cheering people on some of them truly clueless as somewhat irresponsible.
Was the 311' long coast guard ship and its crew actually in danger? When was the last time a 311' coast guard ship went down in any sort of conditions?
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:40   #141
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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Originally Posted by Khagan1227 View Post
Your outrage is noted, however a few points to consider.

1. SOME forms of Salmonella are spread through feces, it is called typhoid fever.
2. You (nor I) know what illness the baby had when Eric punched out.
3. Did Charlotte sterilize the sink after washing the diapers? (I don't know because she isn't present to present her side of the story.) If she did, the dirty diaper issue is moot.
4. Neither hot nor cold water will kill bacteria alone. You need 140 - 150 degrees F (60 - 65 C) to kill the salmonella bacteria, most hot water from heaters is 125 degrees F or less.
5. The amount of fuel they had on board had nothing to do with Eric's choice to abandon ship.

I am curious as to why the sink and not a bucket, perhaps an ergonomics issue?
Thanks for bringing in some facts. There aren't many around here!

If it were me, I'd wash them in a bucket... in the sink. A bucket anywhere else is going to go flying. So perhaps she didn't fill in all the details because it wasn't germane to her point and didn't think that she was going to be shredded for every last detail of every moment of her day while doing something as normal as washing a cloth diaper.

Edit: I see Ann beat me to it by a mile!
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:51   #142
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
My wife became an RN to allow her to be a better cruiser. More income, easier to get work abroad, crucial medical skills on the crew.
We have more RNs onboard than you do. Two when it's just Mrs. Onassis and I; three when my daughter's onboard, five if my brother and his son come along and six if my best friend Kenny joins us. Even more if we invite my wife's friends.

It's going to take you a while to catch up.

Ken
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:54   #143
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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Originally Posted by Two Cats View Post
Ha!
Being a very recent sailor and boat owner (or is it boat-owned... , I would like to say that Rebel Heart's contribution for me was/is the honesty of their blog, and sharing, in a sense, their everyday life onboard. It was more than just photos of happy people holding drinks, which I love seeing, but felt a bit limited in scope. Their blog was among the first we found online last year, when we decided to buy a bigger boat and become more serious (not really "serious" per se, but it's late up here and my English is failing me) about sailing. I loved reading about their adventures big and small, about gear and tech and bowsprits and redoing cushions.

I'm one of those infamous spouses who initially had deep reservations about sailing. Didn't even want to *step* on that boat. Even on a very boring river in a very forgiving boat! Fear of the unknown I guess (which I have sadly passed on to our son...but we're currently trying hard to climb back out of that hole). I armed myself with information. We went to boat shows, took courses, read books and visited blogs. I found RH was pretty much the only one where I knew I wouldn't get their sugar-coated version of events: I'd get their experience, warts and all.

Also, someone up the chain mentioned how RH could help draw those who seek to go "off the grid". I think that's a very valid point! I personally never would have even thought about living on a boat until last year, when I realized how widespread it was, and how it wasn't really a new thing. How adventurous!

Cheers,

Nat
The new guy got why I started this thread, but the rest of you know me and know I don't care how far a thread that I start drifts.
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:55   #144
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
We have more RNs onboard than you do. Two when it's just Mrs. Onassis and I; three when my daughter's onboard, five if my brother and his son come along and six if my best friend Kenny joins us. Even more if we invite my wife's friends.

It's going to take you a while to catch up.

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Old 12-04-2014, 20:56   #145
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
If you go to Erics profile and select previous posts and find his first post in 2006 you will see he bought Rebel Heart in 2005.

Thats not 'go now'.

I bought mine in 2008 and have whacked 35,000 miles on it.

So Eric has had 9 years to clock up miles in prep of his circumnav.

I'm not critisizing his choices, but one can't possibly say he was in the go small go now group.



Mark


To a guy like me who has spent twenty years or more working up to a bigger boat and building skills, family/crew, kitty, and all the rest, you guys both fall into that group. And that is in no way an insult, in my opinion.
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:58   #146
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
We have more RNs onboard than you do. Two when it's just Mrs. Onassis and I; three when my daughter's onboard, five if my brother and his son come along and six if my best friend Kenny joins us. Even more if we invite my wife's friends.

It's going to take you a while to catch up.

Ken



Crap! We'll never catch up. What if she gets her LPN?
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Old 12-04-2014, 20:59   #147
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Re: Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community

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I would say that taking risks that outweigh the benefits is equally poor judgement. What exactly is a 13 month old baby going to learn, or remember about crossing the ocean? Nothing.

I learned to calculate risk/reward from my mom. She called it "common sense" but it's not very common at all.

...
I think you raise two important points. You believe the risk outweighs the benefits. They did not. I agree with them. I think that the thousands of successful crossing with young children indicates that many other parents also agree with them.

People have brought up the memory thing a few times. The 1 and 3 year olds will not remember these years. That doesn't mean that these years aren't critical to their development. We don't leave our toddlers in dark rooms all day just because they won't remember when they grow up. We enrich their lives as much as we can because we know these years are formative of who they will be when they get older.

What could be better for a baby or a toddler than having both parents full time, playing outside every day, experiencing new sounds, smells, foods and people. Swimming and exploring the beach. Surely parents can give more love and joy to their children if they are happy and content with their lives and not giving up their dreams of travel to live in the suburbs instead because they are afraid of the perceived risks of following their dreams?
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Old 12-04-2014, 21:14   #148
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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So Eric has had 9 years to clock up miles in prep of his circumnav.

I'm not critisizing his choices, but one can't possibly say he was in the go small go now group.Mark
Mark,

By Eric's own admission on his blog, he states that the longest family passage they'd done prior to their 3000 mile attempt was four days in protected waters. I'm certainly no world circumnavigator expert cruiser myself, but I did know enough to hire two professional delivery Captains when we crossed the Bay of Biscay two years ago, because it was an unknown.

And because....


I think a good suggestion to other cruisers considering an extended voyage, would to first crew on another vessel with experienced people onboard to see how it goes. Our friends who purchased a two million dollar yacht did exactly that twice prior to attempting a crossing on their own.

Ken
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Old 12-04-2014, 21:23   #149
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Crap! We'll never catch up. What if she gets her LPN?
We'll lend you a jerry can of diesel.
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Old 12-04-2014, 21:35   #150
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Re: Rebel Heart's Contribution to the Cruising Community

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Ann,

With all due respect, I don't see how any of this is relevant to the discussion. What should it matter, the kind of boat one has or how one chooses to spend money as it relates to cruising safety? All I suggested in my first post were nine items:

1. Don't leave with sick kids on medication
2. Have some prior offshore experience
3. Know how you and your spouse will handle stressful situations
4. Have some prior foul weather experience.
5. Know how to repair one's equipment and have the stuff onboard to do so when the time comes.
6. Bring jerry cans of extra fuel and water.
7. Take sea sick medication before you get sick, not.... 4 days later.
8. Purchase a genuine aluminum whisker pole... not scavenged bamboo.
9. Don't have a set timetable in order to meet unrealistic personal goals.

The total cost for jerry cans are about $10 each and the cost for a 5 gallon bucket to wash diapers in, rather than the galley sink... is about $5 at the Home Depot. Hardly enough to break the bank of most cruising couples. The rest of my suggestions relate to experience and common sense.

Ken Onassis
Ken,

With all due respect, and in spite of temptation to respond point by point:

1) We do not know enough of what specifically occurred,
2) how many jerry jugs or buckets the RH carried;
2.5) what those were used for,
3) details of medications carried and programs for their use, and this is because
3) ALL blog info is necessarily incomplete.

Since we don't know, I am going to wait to discuss all of this. No disrespect is intended.

Ann



Digression follows:

(The money bar is an issue I think I have noticed. If the forum chooses to take it up, fine, if not, fine, too. It was placed as digression and clearly labeled as such in my previous post. From my point of view, it would perhaps have been better to quote the whole digression, if you want to write about the "money bar." It is definitely a separate issue. Its relevance for what is called preparedness is that some people simply cannot afford to prepare with as many reserves as others: the smaller the boat, the less room for *stuff*. See the "Cruising on $500 Per Month" thread for discussion relative to what some who want to cruise do without.)

'Bye for now.

A.
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