Questions for a boat broker

[Cthoops]

We're researching our "next" boat, and we have our eye on one that is listed on Yachtworld. We've already gone to see it once to see if the headroom and berth length would work for my husband, who is 6'4". I had e-mailed the broker and told him we were still a few years away from pulling the trigger (which was true at the time) so we just wanted to see if we should keep it on the short list.

Now that we've seen it, we're thinking maybe we could move our time frame up. However, before we go to look at it with a more serious eye I was thinking I should e-mail the broker with additional questions about when certain items have been replaced, etc. The boat is almost 40 years old and is definitely overpriced, so I was hoping to get some information on the condition of various systems to support our offer (should we end up making one). The Yachtworld listing has a few details, but not a lot.

We bought our current boat - our first boat - directly from the owner through sailboatlistings.com, so we're not entirely sure how this next step would work with a broker (besides the fact that I'm not sure I would believe his answers given that he represents the seller - maybe that's too cynical). We would get a survey, of course, if we decided after the next visit to move forward.

I was thinking of asking the following questions, but was wondering what, if any, I should add or delete?

Has the standing rigging been replaced? If so, when?
How old is the running rigging?
Has the engine been rebuilt? If so, when and how many hours does it have since the rebuild?
Has the electrical system been updated?
How old are the batteries?
Are the thruhulls and seacocks original?
How old are the sails?


Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Tayana42]

You might also ask about the age of the refrigeration, water pump and bilge pump. You should get as complete a list as possible of what is included with the boat such as how many dock lines, fenders, anchors and rodes, PFDs, dinghy and outboard, etc.

However, I wouldn't rely on information from the broker. You will have a surveyor and depending on the boat, an engine survey and a rigging survey. It might also be worthwhile to have a marine electrician go over your systems.


S/V B'Shert

[ranger58sb]

Were it me, I think my going-in assumption would be that everything is original... and I'd develop an offer (or not) accordingly after viewing the boat and assessing condition for myself. (Original and not well maintained; probably no offer. Original and well kept, maybe.)

If, during that viewing, the broke is interested in selling the boat, I would expect any updates/rebuilds/etc. will be highlighted as positive sales points.

-Chris

[Sid at SailAway]

Originally Posted by Cthoops

We're researching our "next" boat, and we have our eye on one that is listed on Yachtworld. We've already gone to see it once to see if the headroom and berth length would work for my husband, who is 6'4". I had e-mailed the broker and told him we were still a few years away from pulling the trigger (which was true at the time) so we just wanted to see if we should keep it on the short list.

Now that we've seen it, we're thinking maybe we could move our time frame up. However, before we go to look at it with a more serious eye I was thinking I should e-mail the broker with additional questions about when certain items have been replaced, etc. The boat is almost 40 years old and is definitely overpriced, so I was hoping to get some information on the condition of various systems to support our offer (should we end up making one). The Yachtworld listing has a few details, but not a lot.

We bought our current boat - our first boat - directly from the owner through sailboatlistings.com, so we're not entirely sure how this next step would work with a broker (besides the fact that I'm not sure I would believe his answers given that he represents the seller - maybe that's too cynical). We would get a survey, of course, if we decided after the next visit to move forward.

I was thinking of asking the following questions, but was wondering what, if any, I should add or delete?

Has the standing rigging been replaced? If so, when?
How old is the running rigging?
Has the engine been rebuilt? If so, when and how many hours does it have since the rebuild?
Has the electrical system been updated?
How old are the batteries?
Are the thruhulls and seacocks original?
How old are the sails?


Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!

From a broker....Ask, ask, ask. Any and all questions are fair game. Answering questions is a very important part of our job. We do it every day. Just a few days ago I answered an email from another broker who had a client with a list of twenty some questions about one of my listings. Answered them all, even the one about why did the owner have a Danforth anchor when the new generation anchors are so popular. I believe brokers try to be as honest as possible in their answers, but remember those answers come from the owner who may not be as upfront. Granted, there are some less then honorable brokers out there, but usually the survey tells most if not all.

If you're really interested in the boat but don't want to put her under contract just yet, see if the owner will let you do an "in the water" survey that will determine her true condition and a basis in which to make an offer. Some will, some won't without the boat being under contract, which of course a full survey/sea trial would be in order. If you are not using a buyers broker you really should consider it. It costs you nothing and now you have an advocate looking out for your best interests in the deal.

Hope this helps a little, good luck and let us know how it goes...

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Were it me, I think my going-in assumption would be that everything is original... and I'd develop an offer (or not) accordingly after viewing the boat and assessing condition for myself. (Original and not well maintained; probably no offer. Original and well kept, maybe.)

If, during that viewing, the broke is interested in selling the boat, I would expect any updates/rebuilds/etc. will be highlighted as positive sales points.

-Chris

Yeah, often the brokers seems to know little, unless the owner has specifically noted it. If he did it would usually be on the data sheet for the boat. Often. even then... you may know more than the broker remembers.

I would suggest a second look at the boat after you develop some good questions. If you are serious ask the broker if the owner could meet you. I've found owners have trouble keeping their mouths shut sometimes... which is good! or....Take a cell phone and take a picture of the registration etc... you can then track down the owner and ask directly.

Has the standing rigging been replaced? If so, when?
How old is the running rigging?
Running rigging condition should be obvious from looking at it.
Has the engine been rebuilt? If so, when and how many hours does it have since the rebuild?
Has the electrical system been updated? Are terminals on the panel corroded? Do they look old? Wires too?
How old are the batteries? Most have a date on top. Figure they last about 5 years , or less if not used much.
Are the thru hulls and seacocks original? Try opening/closing them.
How old are the sails? Look at some portion of them, look for stitching that is very worn etc. Also very soft flexible fabric is old.

High expense items:
Bottom blister history or currently.
Tanks that are going bad (especially if under the floor)
Sails
Standing rigging/chainplates
Keel bolts (if that boat has them)
Rudder issues
Water in the decks or core if a cored hull.
engine/transmission/shaft.
Evidence of water leaking in/portlites, hatches, deck to hull joint.

[Sid at SailAway]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Yeah, often the brokers seems to know little, unless the owner has specifically noted it. If he did it would usually be on the data sheet for the boat. Often. even then... you may know more than the broker remembers.

I would suggest a second look at the boat after you develop some good questions. If you are serious ask the broker if the owner could meet you. I've found owners have trouble keeping their mouths shut sometimes... which is good! or....Take a cell phone and take a picture of the registration etc... you can then track down the owner and ask directly.

Has the standing rigging been replaced? If so, when?
How old is the running rigging?
Running rigging condition should be obvious from looking at it.
Has the engine been rebuilt? If so, when and how many hours does it have since the rebuild?
Has the electrical system been updated? Are terminals on the panel corroded? Do they look old? Wires too?
How old are the batteries? Most have a date on top. Figure they last about 5 years , or less if not used much.
Are the thru hulls and seacocks original? Try opening/closing them.
How old are the sails? Look at some portion of them, look for stitching that is very worn etc. Also very soft flexible fabric is old.

High expense items:
Bottom blister history or currently.
Tanks that are going bad (especially if under the floor)
Sails
Standing rigging/chainplates
Keel bolts (if that boat has them)
Rudder issues
Water in the decks or core if a cored hull.
engine/transmission/shaft.
Evidence of water leaking in/portlites, hatches, deck to hull joint.

I'd like to add to the above.. If you want to open and close sea cocks, DON'T do it yourself! Ask the owner and then if one snaps off in his hand and the boat starts taking on water it's his issue, not yours. Ask me how I know...

[denverd0n]

I would suggest getting Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat."
http://tinyurl.com/mvzo3jp

Compared to the price of a boat it is pennies. It will give you a very good idea of what you should be asking. It will also help you on your next inspection to determine for yourself if this boat is worth making an offer on, and worth spending the money for a survey on.

Good luck.

[a64pilot]

I'm confused, you said the boats definitely overpriced.
Are you willing to pay more than market value for the boat?

[Cthoops]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I'm confused, you said the boats definitely overpriced.
Are you willing to pay more than market value for the boat?

No. I'm just looking to gather as much information as I can about age of parts (before ponying up for a survey) so I can support my well-under-the-asking price offer.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think the offer comes before the survey? And then depending on what the survey turns up there may be further price adjustments?

[Cthoops]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

I would suggest getting Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat."
http://tinyurl.com/mvzo3jp

Compared to the price of a boat it is pennies. It will give you a very good idea of what you should be asking. It will also help you on your next inspection to determine for yourself if this boat is worth making an offer on, and worth spending the money for a survey on.

Good luck.

Thanks for the suggestion. We actually have that book - it's a good one! I'll definitely be rereading it before we go back for a second look.

[foothillsailor]

Also ask about the make, model number and age of the electronics (radio, depth, wind, speed, chartplotter, radar etc) ---as these not only can be very expensive to replace but also with constantly new technology updates can become 'obsolete' or 'aged' in a surprisingly short time. Also age and date since last recertification/inspection of any life raft ---recertification/inspection of a liferaft can be surprisingly expensive

Just my two bits
Good luck

[nautical62]

The broker is simply going to ask the buyer to provide this information and the seller does not have your best interests in mind. Rather than rely on their word, I'd inspect what you can yourself. Look at the sails, turn the instruments on, turn the stove on, give the head a few pumps, use the windlass, take a look at he cushions, etc. I'd keep the questions to a few important things you may not be able to easily determine for yourself, like the engine, rigging and if the boat has blisters.

Most importantly, when you are serious about buying the boat, hire a good surveyor. That's the person who will give you the most professional, unbiased information.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Cthoops

No. I'm just looking to gather as much information as I can about age of parts (before ponying up for a survey) so I can support my well-under-the-asking price offer.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think the offer comes before the survey? And then depending on what the survey turns up there may be further price adjustments?

Your correct, good luck, from my buying experience it seemed boats that the price was well over market value, the seller wasn't yet motivated and I was wasting my time. Maybe you will have better luck

[Tessellate]

You should definitely ask if there's a prior survey that he's able to show you. Some sellers won't permit sending an electronic copy but will allow viewing of the physical copy on the boat. It's definitely worth it if you can. If there's been a survey by a well respected surveyor in the last 5 years, then there's a good chance you won't have any big surprises if/when you survey. If there are no surveys or only cursory insurance surveys, expect bigger surprises.

Your questions are good, but I would skip:

- How old is the running rigging? (you should be able to easily assess their condition yourself)
- How old are the batteries? (batteries are a regular maintenance item, and relatively cheap compared to any serious issues)

You should add a question about the bottom:
- When was the last time the bottom was redone or painted, and zincs replaced? (if it's been a really long time you can expect it to be pretty messy when you haul, and bottom jobs are expensive)

I agree with others that said you need to talk to the seller if you want a better chance of getting more questions answered accurately. In my experience buying a boat four months ago, even good brokers simply don't have that much time to answer and research dozens of questions - selling old, cheap boats (cheap relative to the brand new boats they sell!) is not where they make most of their money.

[Stu Jackson]

In addition to that book, try this:

Boat Inspection Trip Tips - SailboatOwners.com