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Old 08-12-2019, 06:17   #1
AST
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Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

Hi all.
I m in a process of purchasing a 92 IP (29'). (My first boat)
Spec says she had her bottom paint done in July 2019.
We did the haul out for the survey. The bottom paint looked very new. However it is very easy to peal it with a scrape knife (not everywhere, but enough places). I will try to add a picture.
The surveyor said it is probably was not done right. And he said there is no sign of blistering or delamination (except for a small area in the rudder).
My questions (assuming I can negotiate dropping the price to redo the bottom paint)
1- could this a attributed to other reasons other than just "not done right"?
2- how could the surveyor determine there no blistering in the hull without really having to remove this noon-sticking paint?
3- any other advises?
Thanks in advance. This list has helped me alot
(link to image): https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-y...PTWChgG8pxC-ez
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:00   #2
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

It looks as though there was poor/no bottom prep prior to applying the antifouling. I think it reasonable to expect a discount on the price since correcting a problem like this is nasty, time consuming and expensive to do yourself, and quite expensive to have done. Check with the yard to see what their rules are regarding bottom jobs, and get a quote to have the current finish removed, the bottom freshly sanded and 2 coats of paint reapplied. There really aren't any shortcuts here - if someone just does the patches that seem poorly attached there's no guarantee more areas won't appear later. This is one of many benefits of getting a good survey before purchasing, defects that can help with negotiations typically surface. Good luck with the boat, I hope things work out well for you.

Pat
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:30   #3
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

Thanks Pat
My worry is that once I remove the paint I would discover some more serious problem (ex. Lots of blistering) which will cost more to fix. Is that a possibility?
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:56   #4
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

I saw a boat in a yard in Alameda once. Huge blisters all over. A few days later, it was nicely painted over and the blisters weren't (really) visible but there was "weepage" through the paint where water was already coming out. On the other hand, my boat was painted prior to selling with probably just a mediocre prep job. A few years later, I could not get to good point without it peeling off in chunks so I removed it all. Probably 200 pounds of old paint buildup over 30 years. No blisters but I primed it and now feel good that I know what I know. More than likely it was just the usual cheap and quick bottom job prior to sale especially if the surveyor didn't see anything. Might be good for a $1000 discount.
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Old 08-12-2019, 14:16   #5
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

We spent a lot of money painting the bottom of our boat with Micron 66 and sailed up the Potomac River. Next time we hauled out, the paint was flaking off badly. I called International to complain and the guy I spoke with said, “You’ve been in fresh water, haven’t you?” I remembered reading on the paint can ‘Not For Fresh Water’ but I didn’t think the paint would fail. An expensive mistake.

Fair winds and calm seas.
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Old 08-12-2019, 14:54   #6
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

You are right in saying that it is almost impossible for a surveyor to spot blisters under all those layers of old antifoul paint. But your surveyor should have given that hull a fairly good examination while it was still wet and been able to see if there were any blisters visible. I am usually fairly confident when I examine a hull, but you cannot be 100% confident since you have no idea of the boats history. I have seen one yacht being prepped for sale and the owner used automotive Bondo to repair the osmosis and then a hairy roller to antifoul. Some poor purchaser was going to get a surprise in the near future.
The old antifoul paint falling of is no surprise. I surveyed a Wharram a few weeks ago and the antifoul was falling of in places. All that happened was the owner had got a good deal on a different brand of paint and had just rolled it on without a barrier coat.
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:23   #7
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

Well I've just noticed that I'm having premature failure of West Marine CPP (which I decided I wasn't going to use any more, but got a great deal on.) As far as I can figure, I did the same prep as last time, which lasted 5 years (ish). Except this time the boat sat in the yard for 9 months, including winter, after painting. Oh, and last time the barrier coat was fresh.

I guess it comes down to "done wrong" or "treated wrong."
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Old 09-12-2019, 10:38   #8
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

Island Packets are nice boats and I would query an owners association about blistering. Many boats have blisters from time to time, but I never heard of a boat sinking from blisters.

If you can get the PO to drop the price a bit, I would take the opportunity to remove all the underwater coatings down to the original gel coat and add a water barrier before any anti-fouling.

Skylark has several layers of International's water barrier (I forget the name of it), it comes in grey or green. By alternating the colors, it is easy to see when I am sanding my red anti-fouling paint and I "hit" the water barrier coatings.

Skylark had a few blisters and some occasionally pop up, but there are only a few.

If the boat you are looking at has been on the hard for over a year, that means the hull is dryer and would take a water barrier well. Or haul the boat for a winter and let her dry out a bit. Fiberglass does absorb water over time so leaving water in bilge areas or leaving the boat in the water for several seasons, doesn't do the boat any good.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:02   #9
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

It can be a sign that blisters were filled . I am always suspect of a new bottom paint job. I have had 2 boats on which this was done, surveyed fine, but blisters popped out within months. Once stripped, there were a lot of blisters filled with two colors , so was done more than once!
I once asked a seller (through the broker) to sign a statement that there has been no history of bottom blisters!
The surveyor has no idea if there are blisters under the paint, although if the bottom is clean and wet you can look with lighting at the reflection and sometimes see filled blisters if you look closely enough.
If you can get the broker to have the owner meet you at the boat, then casually ask about blister history, a lot of people dont like to lie to your face. Also, often you get a lot of info on the boat... seller's talk too much sometimes!
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:04   #10
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

Maybe hard paint over ablative? Looks like a prep issue. If done that recently by a reputable yard, might be a warranty item. If DIY, well, back to prep or hard over ablative.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:05   #11
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

Is it just gel under the loose paint or something else?
The boat needs to be stripped to correct it. That's expensive.... so yes, get a quote and discount your final offer.
I wouldn't go down the "yard warranty" route. Even if they will agree to repair it, they will do only a quick minimal amount to get you out of their hair. It needs done once and properly.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:22   #12
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

Bottom paint peeling in spots - typically caused by poor prep and adhesion issues.

If you were peeling away gelcoat you would definitely notice.

WRT blisters - it is hard to hide multiple or severe blistering with paint. A good surveyor will find blisters in a hull when he/she "pings" the hull with a ball-peen hammer. You can also do this very simply type of inspection if you think the surveyor's inspection was not thorough. I've seen some surveyors ping approx. every square foot. & some ping approx. every square 2 feett. If there are multiple blisters it would be hard to miss.

My bigger concern would be the possible delamination the surveyor heard in the rudder. If it is merely a blister it may not be a big issue. But, if in fact the rudder has delamination this could potentially be a much bigger and costlier job.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:57   #13
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

Boat was represented as having a new bottom 4-5 months ago. Given the purchase offer contemplated a fresh bottom, it's a rare instance where you would not be out of line requesting a full (or mostly full) credit for a fresh bottom. I'd certainly gather as much info as possible to understand what happened (paint? prep? other?) and steps to fix with costs, but in the end, the current owner is likely surprised at the paint issue. Assuming you like the boat, a nice approach might be "I made an offer based on a fresh bottom - I assume you're as surprised as I am that the paint has problems. How would you like to address?" Would get his number first in this instance.

Bottom paint won't hide blisters. Honestly, on a 29-foot boat, correcting paint issues like this isn't a huge problem. Assumes current owner is relatively forthcoming and honest and truly is surprised. If, however, he/she did a BS paintjob to try to hide a seriously overdue bottom, well, they are now caught.
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Old 09-12-2019, 15:58   #14
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

Quote:
Originally Posted by AST View Post
Thanks Pat
My worry is that once I remove the paint I would discover some more serious problem (ex. Lots of blistering) which will cost more to fix. Is that a possibility?
YES..... have the hull soda blasted..... you may have a big surprise that I had with my Catalina 27!
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Old 09-12-2019, 16:39   #15
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Re: Question on survey result: bottom paint not sticking

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Originally Posted by nhschneider View Post
We spent a lot of money painting the bottom of our boat with Micron 66 and sailed up the Potomac River. Next time we hauled out, the paint was flaking off badly. I called International to complain and the guy I spoke with said, “You’ve been in fresh water, haven’t you?” I remembered reading on the paint can ‘Not For Fresh Water’ but I didn’t think the paint would fail. An expensive mistake.

Fair winds and calm seas.
This is interesting since I anti-fouled my boat in May. It was hoping it would be good for at least 80% of the 24 months International claim.

I spent a little time in rives/estuaries a month or so after painting and shortly after large areas washed away as if the they were never even painted. I'm using Micron Extra though and have not read anything in the spec sheet about it not being suitable for brackish water.
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