Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-04-2011, 17:26   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3
Purchasing First Sailboat

Hi All,

I am new to the forum, and new to boating, and could really use some advice on whether to buy or walk from a boat I have under contract.

I put an offer on a 1991 Catalina 30 tall rig on the Chesapeake Bay, for 10% less than the seller's asking price (found it on craigslist, no broker involved, this is less than BUC value but more than NADA).

The offer was accepted and we had a survey that turned up a number of issues, anywhere from $2-$5k to fix, but aside from these the boat is in good shape with new canvas, sails and running rigging.

The seller won't lower the price or pay to have the issues them fixed...she says they are "maintenance" issues I should pay for, and that we shouldn't use the survey to renegotiate price. But, I feel like she is asking me to carry the cost of her deferred maintenance. Should I just pass on the boat or accept the costs?

Also, I don't know how much blisters might affect my re-sell prospects down the road.

Any input is greatly appreciated!!!!

Issues from survey:
- leaky chainplate led to a small amount of bulkhead rot, $500 or so to fix it and add a support plate, and $1500 or so to pull and re-bed them all which was recommended by the surveyor.
- bottom had half dozen 2" blisters and one about 5" that need to be grinded out this fall, again at least $500
- previous rudder repair was not adhering and needs re-glassed - no idea on the cost
- cutlass bearing will need replaced when we pull it in the fall, it showed wear but is useable for this season, and bronze shaft may need replaced too $500-$1500
- no reefing lines on the mainsail
- compass was out of oil
- Some hoses needed replaced on the engine because they were the wrong size but seller says she'll fix those
__________________

__________________
mdstef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2011, 17:37   #2
Registered User
 
Sailagain's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bristol, RI
Boat: Beneteau 34'
Posts: 153
The market for resale boats is very soft. Boats stay on the market for a long time. I have seen the same boats on the market in RI, MA for years.

The seller should reduce the price by the cost of repairs, or you can move on to another boat. There are 100s out there. It will take some time work to find the perfect combination of price and boat to suit your needs.

Unless you have already been looking for a long time and this is the first one you have found that is close to your needs and price. Then you should try to get the seller to meet in the middle, and do the best you can.

There is no real right answer - just do what you think is best. If you want to be sailing very soon and can't find anything else - go for it! If you have time to wait it out. Thats fine too
__________________

__________________
Sailagain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2011, 17:49   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Philadelphia,Pa
Boat: Cape Dory Cutter 36'-Shana
Posts: 17
Re: New to forum: Need advice please on negotiating to buy my first sailboat

With the exception of the reefing lines and the cutlass bearing, most of the items on your checklist I wouldn't consider ordinary maintenance. The purpose of a survey is to discover the problems so they can be part of the sales decision. If the owner doesn't want to discuss the price, I would walk. This is a buyers market and there are plenty of boats that are in great shape that have not been sold in YEARS.
__________________
jerrycd36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2011, 18:07   #4
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: New to forum: Need advice please on negotiating to buy my first sailboat

There are at least two aspects to your question; one being your legal options and responsibilities and the other being the actual condition of the boat and therefore price you should pay.

Of course one can't give a worthwhile legal opinion without seeing the actual contact and being qualified to do so (which I am not); however in general terms, if the contract to buy includes a clause that the purchase is subject to a survey to the purchaser's satisfaction then you probably have the option to walk away and keep your deposit (assuming you paid one). It also gives you some leverage to re-negotiate the price if you want to proceed with the purchase.

IME, it is normal to use the survey to adjust the price downwards if the defects found warrant it, especially if the defects are not obvious to the "average" buyer while the boat is in the water. For instance, the blisters and rudder issues would not have been seen assuming you inspected the boat while it was floating, you probably would not have picked the chainplate issue but you should have noted say the lack of reefing lines and compass fluid.

As to who pays, well that is still up for negotiation (again assuming the above contract clause).

IME, the buyer is expected to pay for normal fair wear and tear items (i.e. current maintenance items) while vendor pays for items to bring the boat back to a seaworthy condition e.g. the chain plates, blisters, rudder etc. (i.e. due to lack of previous maintenance or deferred maintenance)

For me, perhaps the biggest unknown is the chain plates, the leaky one will probably need replacing and the rot will almost certainly be more extensive once you get to see everything after the chain plate is removed. The other chain plates will be vary suspect also. The dollars can start to skyrocket if more chainplate issues are found.

Another aspect is - do you pay less and sort the problems yourself or pay the contract price and have the vendor sort them before completion of sale. I am sure you see the pros and cons with each arrangement.

If it was me and I wanted the boat, I would pay less (and sort the issues myself) or walk away.

BTW, welcome aboard CF and I trust your experience here will be a great one. Good luck with the purchase.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-04-2011, 19:24   #5
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
I would say there are alot of Catalina 30s out there. If this boat is well below the price of others you might want to proceed. My personal thought is that the chain plate, blisters and rudder are structural, non-maintenance items that need to be professionally fixed. The survey is designed to find this stuff and it did. The survey is not perfect and may not have found other stuff. If the owner wont deal, I would walk.

If you have settled on a cat 30 and have not looked at a dozen or so I woukd keep this one in mind and do some comparison shopping. If you dont find one better and this one is gone, then Neptune has had his hand in your fate.

Cutlass bearings, compass etc. are maintenance items. In this regard you shouod have a decent reserve for the first year. We spent about 25% of the purchase price in the first year rerplacing, sheets, blocks, compass, and other items that were just ready to go.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2011, 09:39   #6
Registered User
 
JoeDiver's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: DFW Metroplex
Boat: 1982 Catalina 25 Yacht
Posts: 164
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdstef View Post
I put an offer on a 1991 Catalina 30 tall rig on the Chesapeake Bay, for 10% less than the seller's asking price (found it on craigslist, no broker involved, this is less than BUC value but more than NADA).

The offer was accepted
As stated above, your legal obligations depend on the wording of the offer. Was it contingent on a successful survey? If you didn't have this spelled out and you walk, you will lose your earnest money. The seller is under no obligation whatsoever to lower the negotiated price, especially since the offer was accepted. The price is the price, y'all have agreed on it. Now, if the offer was a contingent one, based on the survey results, you have more remedy to walk and not lose money, but the seller is still not required to lower the offered and accepted price. Most "reasonable" people will of course, but ya know, some folks out there are just....well.....
__________________
1982 Catalina 25, #2897; SR/FK/Traditional; Eagle Mountain Lake, Texas.
JoeDiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2011, 10:10   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ontario canada
Boat: grampian 26
Posts: 1,743
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

Does the 10% represent more than the $2 to $5k repair cost estimate?
__________________
perchance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2011, 12:21   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

The 10% is around $2k, but I don't feel like that difference should justify the seller not paying for any repairs as that really brought it down to what we felt was market value if the boat was in good shape.

I think we are going to pass on the boat, just because of the risk we run that the repairs, such as chain plate, may end up running our costs up above the appraised value. Also, I am afraid we'll get into a position where we're fixing blisters every other year, or paying to have the whole bottom stripped. And, I don't want to buy a boat that I know may be difficult to re-sell down the road. Also, there were a couple other issues I didn't mention before that are puzzling -- one is the rudder was bent about 7 degrees, which would probably need replaced, and two was the bow pulpit was bent down, probably just cosmetic, but I have no idea how that happens.

Thank you all so much for your advice on this issue. It has really helped us make the best decision possible. I think we will put an offer on a 1992 Hunter 30 that was our second choice.
__________________
mdstef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2011, 12:50   #9
Registered User
 
Unicorn Dreams's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Clear Lake Marine Services - Seabrook, Texas
Boat: Gulfstar, Mark II Ketch, 43'
Posts: 2,359
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

Welcome aboard and enjoy CF.'

Hope you get your issues worked out.
__________________
Formerly Santana
The winds blow true,The skies stay blue,
Everyday is a good day for SAILING!!!!
Unicorn Dreams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2011, 15:46   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 113
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

Are you only looking at Cat 30's? I have a Cape Dory 27 for sale.
__________________
wizard1_us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2011, 05:16   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

I'm looking at 30 footers. The Cape Dory is a little small for us. Thanks though.
__________________
mdstef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2011, 05:33   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 243
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

No idea how good you are in DIY boat overhaul but these issues could be BIG and cost you a multifold of the amounts you mention.

Did you get a semifirm quote from a yard on these repair jobs? If they do not want to semi-commit at the amounts that you mention... walk away.

- leaky chainplate led to a small amount of bulkhead rot, $500 or so to fix it and add a support plate, and $1500 or so to pull and re-bed them all which was recommended by the surveyor.
- bottom had half dozen 2" blisters and one about 5" that need to be grinded out this fall, again at least $500
- previous rudder repair was not adhering and needs re-glassed - no idea on the cost
- cutlass bearing will need replaced when we pull it in the fall, it showed wear but is useable for this season, and bronze shaft may need replaced too $500-$1500
__________________
arjand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2011, 06:10   #13
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,305
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

In my opinion you should walk away!

These are not maintenance items, they are in the ignored problems list of items (so what else are then on the boat that are the same that you don't know about, and there will be some). Could easily be a lot worst and more expensive than the survey estimate prices. And if they aren't if you add the cost of them to the price you are willing to pay for the boat; it would be better to pay that same amount on a boat that is in better maintained condition.
__________________
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-04-2011, 19:59   #14
Registered User
 
hard-a-ground's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Boat: Beneteau First 265, 26.5 ft
Posts: 56
Images: 1
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

There are a flat out huge number of boats for sale out there... A couple of years ago the great deals were many, not so much now but still good. I would watch the field for a little bit before jumping in. Once you buy it, you get the cost of ownership. Enjoy the looking phase a little longer is what i would do. I've always wanted to go on a road trip of flat out looking at boats for sale. Try to do survey's as best i could on every boat i saw. someday alas...
__________________
hard-a-ground is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-04-2011, 16:42   #15
Registered User

Join Date: May 2010
Location: St Pete FL
Boat: 1972 Contest 33
Posts: 783
Re: Purchasing First Sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdstef View Post
Hi All,

I am new to the forum, and new to boating, and could really use some advice on whether to buy or walk from a boat I have under contract.

I put an offer on a 1991 Catalina 30 tall rig on the Chesapeake Bay, for 10% less than the seller's asking price (found it on craigslist, no broker involved, this is less than BUC value but more than NADA).

The offer was accepted and we had a survey that turned up a number of issues, anywhere from $2-$5k to fix, but aside from these the boat is in good shape with new canvas, sails and running rigging.

The seller won't lower the price or pay to have the issues them fixed...she says they are "maintenance" issues I should pay for, and that we shouldn't use the survey to renegotiate price. But, I feel like she is asking me to carry the cost of her deferred maintenance. Should I just pass on the boat or accept the costs?

Also, I don't know how much blisters might affect my re-sell prospects down the road.

Any input is greatly appreciated!!!!

Issues from survey:
- leaky chainplate led to a small amount of bulkhead rot, $500 or so to fix it and add a support plate, and $1500 or so to pull and re-bed them all which was recommended by the surveyor.
- bottom had half dozen 2" blisters and one about 5" that need to be grinded out this fall, again at least $500
- previous rudder repair was not adhering and needs re-glassed - no idea on the cost
- cutlass bearing will need replaced when we pull it in the fall, it showed wear but is useable for this season, and bronze shaft may need replaced too $500-$1500
- no reefing lines on the mainsail
- compass was out of oil
- Some hoses needed replaced on the engine because they were the wrong size but seller says she'll fix those

Just my opinion!
Run like the wind.
There are to many boats out there in good shape. This one needs to be pulled and fixed at a large expense. Your better off walking and getting something you can sail instead of work on.
And don't forget, If your married your wife will only think you bought a lot of work and not something to have fun on. Better to walk and find something you can have fun with right away instead.
Just my 2 cents !
__________________

__________________
Auto pilot is saying get up here and grab the tiller.
w1651 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sailboat, purchasing

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Purchasing Procedure anjou Boat Ownership & Making a Living 11 19-08-2009 15:46
Purchasing a Blue-Water-Capable Sailboat - Advice? More Cowbell Monohull Sailboats 2 02-08-2009 08:14
purchasing advice sailor girl Navigation 3 12-06-2008 08:33
purchasing a boat Tigerlily Monohull Sailboats 22 05-01-2006 15:41



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:28.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.