Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

[Exile]

Originally Posted by sageofsalem

All I know about my Morgan 462 is it can take way more than I can and has proven it to me on more than one occasion when I forgot to reef at dark (duh! slap upside of the head and Titans banging on the hull with gigantic sledge hammers). I've been on much finer boats, better equipped vessels, and boats that were much better performers, but my boat has been affordable, easy to access maintainance-wise (though maybe 25-50 % more expensive to haul and paint than my old fin keel but tender speedster).

I bought it in St. Pete and trucked it to Lake Michigan for a couple year shakedown and transition from the thirty footer to the 50 footer (overall). Once I got the hang of it, after about a season or ten to fifteen sails I found it much easier to manage mostly because the guy I bought it from, Quen Cultra (God rest his soul) was a REAL SAILOR and that was my plan. Bought a boat right after he circumnavigated South America and made the owner and the broker put about twenty grand in it before I signed off. (I did pay their asking price but got a proven vessel in like new shape and have enjoyed it ever since.

Now since I been fighting Cancer (apparently successfully) for the last 20 months, I've decided to give up the dream and do something more suited to my age and that's why my boat appears in the "Boats Classified" as "Morgan 462 Cape Horn Vet." i wish I could do it all over again...

Beautiful boat Sage! Keep up the fight and best of luck with the sale.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Suijin

You're missing the point. The number of boats that have done it is immaterial. The ARC is a milkrun with comparatively benign conditions. It's not a test of anything, 99% of the time, other than how well your boat goes downwind in 15-20 knots of steady breeze. I'm pretty sure Kon Tiki could do the ARC without much of an issue.

Funny, on one of the runs I did, we regularly had 40 gusting 50. The sail maker in st Lucia got weeks of work

Perhaps you've never sailed the Atlantic

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[goat]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

You keep bringing up old boats like the Catalina 27. As I've said many times, I owned one and there is no way I'd take that boat into "blue water" without some serious attention first. And, because of that requirement, I certainly would never advocated it as "fit for blue water". I don't think it was ever marketed as such either.

You'll notice that Catalina's current 27 is a "sport boat" marketed essentially as a day-sailer/racer:

The smallest boat they have right now that is marketed as a "cruising boat" is the 315 (but you'll notice it's not part of the "Ocean Series" which starts at 38' - and it was awarded best "Inshore Cruiser"):

Cool little boat. But it's pretty clear what this boat is and what it isn't.

So, let's be careful bringing in these small old production boats from the '70's. I don't think they're relevant to this conversation.

Yeah I don't know why everyone brings up C27s either. Catalina 30 MKIII is the smallest Cat A certified boat they made;

Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts

goat

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Funny, on one of the runs I did, we regularly had 40 gusting 50. The sail maker in st Lucia got weeks of work

Perhaps you've never sailed the Atlantic

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes I've done that route serveral times and seen 40-50, either sustained in storms coming off the African coast or the usual squalls. Winds like that are common when you head offshore, but on that route, at that time of year, the sea state is generally benign due to the trades. Even when it's honking' its a pretty smooth ride. In my experience it's about as predictable and safe an ocean crossing as you can make.

As for Kenny at Rodney Bay, he's always busy.

[Polux]

Anyway I was never talking or posting regarding boats crossing only the Atlantic but doing a full circumnavigation an that is the case of the 30 entries for the ARCW that is a full circumnavigation. The Entries are 30 and among them 3 performance cruisers, a First 44.7, a XP44 and a Sweden Yacht 54.

The boats more represented are the Amel (three 54 and one 64) closely followed by Lagoon (two 440 and one 620), Halberg Rassy (a 48, a 42 and a 46) and Oyster (Two 53, a 41 and a 575) .

Regarding cats there are also a Leopard 40 and a FP 44, but no performance ones. In what concerns mass production cheap cruisers besides the Beneteau First there are a Bavaria 49 and off course the Lagoons, Fountain Pajot and the Leopard.

Probably the large number of very expensive and the big average size of the boats has to do with price that is considerable for making an ARCW. Probably most of the ones that circumnavigate in inexpensive mass production boats don't have the budget to do the this rally otherwise they would also have the money for doing it on a better and more expensive boat, a performance one like the Xp44 or the Sweden yacht, or a cruising boat like Halberg Rassy or Najad, for instance.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Polux

Probably the large number of very expensive and the big average size of the boats has to do with price that is considerable for making an ARCW. Probably most of the ones that circumnavigate in inexpensive mass production boats don't have the budget to do the this rally otherwise they would also have the money for doing it on a better and more expensive boat, a performance one like the Xp44 or the Sweden yacht, or a cruising boat like Halberg Rassy or Najad, for instance.

Last I heard it was @ $25k to do the full ARCW. Most circumnavigators that I know who've opted out of it do so because they a) don't want to rush around the globe in 18 months and b) want to get off the beaten path and not feel like they are part of a glorified organized tour. I'm sure expense figures into it as well. That's a lot of cake.

The upside of the ARCW is all of the logistical stuff they do for you at various ports, reserving moorings/slips, assisting with provisioning, repairs, deliveries, dealing with communications issues, setting up group tours at various destinations, etc. I'm sure to some that's well worth the price of admission over 18 months.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Last I heard it was @ $25k to do the full ARCW. Most circumnavigators that I know who've opted out of it do so because they a) don't want to rush around the globe in 18 months and b) want to get off the beaten path and not feel like they are part of a glorified organized tour. I'm sure expense figures into it as well. That's a lot of cake.

The upside of the ARCW is all of the logistical stuff they do for you at various ports, reserving moorings/slips, assisting with provisioning, repairs, deliveries, dealing with communications issues, setting up group tours at various destinations, etc. I'm sure to some that's well worth the price of admission over 18 months.

Ye, if you have a shortage of time and have only 2 years to make it the ARC, if you have the money for it, can be a good option. If one has no shortage of time the "normal" minimum time for a circumnavigation is 3 years and I would say that a good time it will be 5 or 6

Regarding price what one pays gives for two to eat everyday on a restaurant and has they pass many days sailing, it would give to eat lobster and champagne every time they are in port

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Polux

...eat lobster and champagne every time they are in port

Wait - doesn't everyone do this? I thought that was just part of cruising.

[Polux]

More mass production boats on the last leg of a circumnavigation, the 2014 ARCW: A Jeanneau SO 39, a Beneteau 40, a Jeanneau SO 49, a Lagoon 38, a Lagoon 620 and a Hanse 47, all doing a lot better than a Taswell 58AS that has been slower and is heading to shore with problems.

I leave to Smack to find out what is wrong with that bluewater boat.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Yes I've done that route serveral times and seen 40-50, either sustained in storms coming off the African coast or the usual squalls. Winds like that are common when you head offshore, but on that route, at that time of year, the sea state is generally benign due to the trades. Even when it's honking' its a pretty smooth ride. In my experience it's about as predictable and safe an ocean crossing as you can make.

As for Kenny at Rodney Bay, he's always busy.

I suppose I could invite you to a early season sail round say Ireland , that'll put hair on your chest and sort out the boat from the boys !!

Its on the same latitudes as about Hudson bay ! 40 kts is described as a fresh breeze and the sea has 3000 miles of fetch, but sure its only coastal , so the " bluewater " boys probably think its like a sail round Tampa bay !

Dave

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Polux

Anyway I was never talking or posting regarding boats crossing only the Atlantic but doing a full circumnavigation an that is the case of the 30 entries for the ARCW that is a full circumnavigation. The Entries are 30 and among them 3 performance cruisers, a First 44.7, a XP44 and a Sweden Yacht 54.

The boats more represented are the Amel (three 54 and one 64) closely followed by Lagoon (two 440 and one 620), Halberg Rassy (a 48, a 42 and a 46) and Oyster (Two 53, a 41 and a 575) .

Regarding cats there are also a Leopard 40 and a FP 44, but no performance ones. In what concerns mass production cheap cruisers besides the Beneteau First there are a Bavaria 49 and off course the Lagoons, Fountain Pajot and the Leopard.

There is a 17yr old Manta 40 catamaran doing the WARC also. It was a production boat in its time.

Mark

[smackdaddy]

Let me go back to my earlier question about Catalina. When you do a quick search on Yachtworld, you see an interesting picture in terms of boat availability...and, maybe, somewhat of a picture on boat value. Here is a search with the following parameters:

Boat Type: (Sail)
Length: 40'-45'
Year: >2000
Price: USD 100,000-150,000

2000 (Sail) Boats For Sale

You'll notice there are TONS of Bavarias and Benes (likely coming out of the charter trade) starting at 2013. Then Jeanneaus, Dufours, Salonas, Hanses, etc. starting at 2011.

You start seeing Hunters at the higher end of this price range at about 2005, with the cheapest being a 2002. But there are almost 50 of them total.

As for Catalinas, you only see 4. The newest is 2002 and at the top of this price range, with the cheapest being a 2000 at $135K.

So, again, why is it that we see so few Catalinas? Are there lots of buyers for the new ones - and they just hold onto their boat? Or are not many sold in the first place? This ratio just seems interesting to me.

The more I've looked into this, the more clear it becomes that the US-based yacht builders are being killed in terms of market share (except maybe for performance boats like J-Boat which has a fairly good international following). But if YW is any indication at all of pure volume moving from new to used...European builders are nailing it.

My hunch is that Catalina has not sold very many bigger boats over the past 10-12 years. It appears Hunter has done much better - but even they have had pretty significant financial problems to the point that Marlow took them over.

I would like to think that YW simply reflects a clear separation of markets (US vs. Europe/etc.) both in terms of price and volume. But all you have to do is walk a marina to see that European brands far outweight US-brands when it comes to newer boats. Way more Benes, Jenes, etc. And way more Hunters than Catalinas.

I honestly don't understand why Catalina isn't more prevalent. It really is a good boat. I can only assume that it's a cost issue (more expensive than other used production boats). Again, that's good for the owners in that they have a well-built boat that holds its value...but I'm not so sure that's good for Catalina.

Thoughts?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

My hunch is that Catalina has not sold very many bigger boats over the past 10-12 years. It appears Hunter has done much better - but even they have had pretty significant financial problems to the point that Marlow took them over.

This is highly empirical, and hardly statistical, but we see many more larger Catalinas in our cruising grounds than Hunters.

On the other hand, we are on the Caribe side of the Panama canal, and a lot of the Catalinas are coming from the Pacific to the Caribe. Probably more want to do that than Hunters going from the Caribe to the Pacific.

Of course, this assumes Catalinas are a larger West coast brand than Hunter, or that people with Catalinas prefer the Caribe more than people with Hunters.

Mark

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by colemj

This is highly empirical, and hardly statistical, but we see many more larger Catalinas in our cruising grounds than Hunters.

On the other hand, we are on the Caribe side of the Panama canal, and a lot of the Catalinas are coming from the Pacific to the Caribe. Probably more want to do that than Hunters going from the Caribe to the Pacific.

Of course, this assumes Catalinas are a larger West coast brand than Hunter, or that people with Catalinas prefer the Caribe more than people with Hunters.

Mark

Interesting. So that might mean that the US market is very much a "coast-centered" market. Is the US really that segmented?

If so, it would certainly seem to behoove Catalina to get some manufacturing base going on the East Coast so that it has easier access to the Carib and European markets. I'm sure the economics aren't there for something like that...but how big is the West Coast-based market and beyond? And do Californians and/or Washingtonians (for example) see more Catalinas than Hunters in their marinas?

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Let me go back to my earlier question about Catalina. When you do a quick search on Yachtworld, you see an interesting picture in terms of boat availability...and, maybe, somewhat of a picture on boat value. Here is a search with the following parameters:

Boat Type: (Sail)
Length: 40'-45'
Year: >2000
Price: USD 100,000-150,000

2000 (Sail) Boats For Sale

You'll notice there are TONS of Bavarias and Benes (likely coming out of the charter trade) starting at 2013. Then Jeanneaus, Dufours, Salonas, Hanses, etc. starting at 2011.

You start seeing Hunters at the higher end of this price range at about 2005, with the cheapest being a 2002. But there are almost 50 of them total.

As for Catalinas, you only see 4. The newest is 2002 and at the top of this price range, with the cheapest being a 2000 at $135K.

So, again, why is it that we see so few Catalinas? Are there lots of buyers for the new ones - and they just hold onto their boat? Or are not many sold in the first place? This ratio just seems interesting to me.

The more I've looked into this, the more clear it becomes that the US-based yacht builders are being killed in terms of market share (except maybe for performance boats like J-Boat which has a fairly good international following). But if YW is any indication at all of pure volume moving from new to used...European builders are nailing it.

My hunch is that Catalina has not sold very many bigger boats over the past 10-12 years. It appears Hunter has done much better - but even they have had pretty significant financial problems to the point that Marlow took them over.

I would like to think that YW simply reflects a clear separation of markets (US vs. Europe/etc.) both in terms of price and volume. But all you have to do is walk a marina to see that European brands far outweight US-brands when it comes to newer boats. Way more Benes, Jenes, etc. And way more Hunters than Catalinas.

I honestly don't understand why Catalina isn't more prevalent. It really is a good boat. I can only assume that it's a cost issue (more expensive than other used production boats). Again, that's good for the owners in that they have a well-built boat that holds its value...but I'm not so sure that's good for Catalina.

Thoughts?

Part of the reason for this is the European boat manufacturers produce 3-4 or more times the sailboats per year than does the american industry. The american boating public tends to be centered around power boats, where the european market is centered around sailboats.

This much greater sailboat production will end up dominating the used boat sales.