Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by RTB

Jim, I was only looking at displacement - S&S 34 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

I'm sure that The Pink Lady was no stock boat, and had plenty of mods done. But yeah, the S&S 34 is a pretty stout little yacht. I'd love to find a fixer-upper, but they are scarce.

Ralph

I kinda suspect that those displacement numbers are a bit optimistic when compared to reality, Ralph, and the Pink Lady wasn't built by the UK builder who apparently supplied the data to that link.

But none the less, even with those numbers the D:L ratio is 290, which represents a medium displacement boat even in those days, and a pretty heavy one today. They are indeed a good design, and considering their age, continue to make a lot of good passages. They are very popular here in Oz.

Cheers, and all the best for 2015 (hope that you get out again)

Jim

[RTB]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Cheers, and all the best for 2015 (hope that you get out again)

Jim

We're hauling out for a bottom job when it warms up, then on our way again. Hopefully past George Town, Bahamas next trip.

All the best to you and Ann as well.

Ralph

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

This is cool. Thanks Polux.

They are not the only ones that for long range chose the boats according these principles:"a fast passage is a safe passage...you are going to want to move without running an engine constantly, so, choose a boat that can sail. " that are mine in what regards the type of cruising I do but would be no different if I decided to do long range cruising. I have been following them for several years Paul and Caroline on Giebateau a 1998 Beneteau First 40.7, a performance cruiser with the same characteristics as my boat, well a bit slower, with a bit less tankage, less storage space and a less comfortable interior.

They are doing a very slow circumnavigation (many years), but sailing very fast. Slow because they go everywhere and took a lot of time to explore Islands and continents, not the type of touch and go. When I say everywhere you can believe it, just look at these images:







Regarding their cruising I just don't like one thing, their blog that is not great in what regards presentation and is written in Dutch

Giebateau: 61 Bestemming Korea (2)

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...VE&usp=sharing

[robert sailor]

Wonderful pictures my friend, these folks are voyagers in every sense, especially on the road less traveled.

[smackdaddy]

Wow. Beneteaus rock!

Actually, is theirs the same year as Cheeki Rafiki? Have they mentioned any concerns about their keel?

(PS - Nevermind - just noticed that theirs is a 1999 and CR was a 2006.)

[scuba0_1]

Strange that light to normal use as you say, probably the use most of those boat get I would guess, with lots made, yet very few with this issue, no possibility of a grounding or damage.. maybe your boat was made on a Friday.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[ka4wja]

smackdaddy,
These discussions happen every so often....and the arguments continue, especially when the topic of "standards" come up...
And, I might regret writing all of this, but on the chance that some here are seriously looking for info/education, here 'ya go...


1) I usually (always) steer clear of the "what's a bluewater boat" and "old traditional boat vs. modern production boat" discussions, as they always end up being arguments about whose opinion is correct (as if there actually are such things as right or wrong opinions!)

And, even the most well-intentioned of us, usually end up just writing about our own personal experiences with one type of boat or another (although I have much offshore experience in both).....and most times, these factual accounts go ignored amongst the arguments...



2) But, if you are seriously looking for multiple real world examples of boats, that some consider "production boats", that are out there on long offshore passages, ocean crossings, and circumnavigations.....then, maybe I can help.
(BTW, please see below for some of my opinion on all of this, etc...)

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Modern Category A "Production Boats" - also referred to in forums as "BeneHunterLinas" and "Bleach Bottles" and other interesting names - are built for and perfectly suited to bluewater cruising. Period.

My point in starting this thread is simply to provide some factual accuracy to what can be very silly and misleading arguments. So, I'd like this thread to be dedicated to examples of the many production boats out there very happily and safely cruising blue water.

Although there are 100's out there right now, and 100's and 100's others that have been out there....I have real-world factual info at my fingertips of just a dozen and half....so in addition to the others mentioned (and in addition to my own boat), here are some for your discussion (with links to vessel/crew/voyage descriptions)...

So, I will post some info here on 16 "production" boats that have (or currently are) crossed oceans, circumnavigated, or made long offshore passages....
{although my personal offshore / ocean crossing experiences, over the past 40+ years, have been in "traditional-design" (Tayana), "semi-modern" (Hinckley), and "modern" (Catalina and Hylas)....and I've posted about those before, so I will post of OTHER boats that have done these voyages and links to info on these boats/sailors...}


Note, this is NOT an advertisement for Catalina, it's just that I have info on them, and none on bene/hunter/etc...


The Circumnavigation of the “Juggernaut”
Catalina 27
Sailed By: Patrick Childress
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACFB0.pdf

The Circumnavigation of the “Patriot”
Catalina 36
Sailed By: Craig Mortensen
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/Patriot-HOF-web.pdf

The Voyage of the “Annie Laurie”
Catalina 470
Sailed by: John MacDougall
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/MacDougall-HOF-web.pdf

The Circumnavigation of the “Anja K”
Catalina 42
Sailed By: The Richards Family
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACF99.pdf

The Voyage of the “C’est La Vie”
Catalina 470
Sailed By: Keith and Susan Levy
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACF9D.pdf

The Voyage of the “Alaskan Poor Boy”
Catalina 36
Sailed By: Mike Gartland
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACFA3.pdf

The Circumnavigation of the “Hippos Camp”
Catalina Morgan 43
Sailed By: The Eustache Family
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACF9B.pdf

The Voyage of “Our Journey”
Catalina 36
Sailed by: Boris & Judy Dobrotin
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACFA5.pdf

The Voyage of the “Salacia”
Catalina 42 mkII
Sailed By: Lucian Jorg
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACFA1.pdf

The Voyage of the “Toroa”
Catalina 42 mkII
Sailed By: Heinz Muehlberger
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACF9F.pdf

The Voyage of the “Red Thread”
Catalina/Morgan 440
Sailed By: Glen and Pam Maddox
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/Red-Thread-HOF-web.pdf

The Voyage of the “Moonrise”
Catalina 36
Sailed by: Eileen Ross & Don Elmore
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACFA9.pdf

The Voyage of the “Sunseeker IV”
Catalina 400
Sailed by: Larry & Jane Burge
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACFAB.pdf

The Voyage of the “Last Resort”
Catalina 470
Sailed by: Richard & Sharon Drechsler
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/LastResort-HOF-11w-web.pdf

The Voyage of the “Figment II”
Catalina 320
Sailed by: Alec Blanc & Crew
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACFAE.pdf

The Voyage of the “Suzanne”
Catalina 42
Sailed by: Gary Shepard & Crew
http://www.catalinayachts.com/pdf/halfoffame/ACFA7.pdf

Now, there ARE 100's of other Catalina's that have safely and successfully made long offshore passages, etc. but, the above are just the ones that have been publicly publicized....
Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts
Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would never buy a boat, nor even include / exclude one from some arbitrary list, based on whether or not it met some standard or certification....
But, since others seem to be looking at these certifications / standards, I thought maybe you could all use some info / facts on them???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3) If you're looking for "classification standards", I haven't seen pleasure boats listed as "Lloyd's 100-A-1" in decades, and even then wasn't too meaningful for the average sailboat buyer....

And then we have "ABS" standards...."the ABS Maltese A1 (+A1)"

Now, the BIG problem here is that, each of these classifications requires that a full set of plans be submitted for review and approval, and a surveyor is present during most of the construction process as well as for the sea trials.....All material used in the boat is tested and, in the case of aluminum or steel yachts, each plate must have a society approval stamp and each welder must pass rigorous tests.

During construction, samples of random welds will be X-rayed and, if a weld does not meet society approval, the plate is removed and a replacement is done correctly.....

For fiberglass yachts, the surveyor takes careful note of material storage methods, lay-up procedures, curing times, and then performs hardness tests on sample sections.

NONE of this is practical even for the limited-production semi-custom manufacturer....and would only be practical for the multi-million dollar custom-built boats....

And, you have the even bigger problem with keeping a yacht like this in these classifications, with annual inspections, surveyors, reports and resubmissions of docs/applications, etc....

These societies do offer lesser ratings, such as the Lloyd’s “Building Certificate” and “Hull Construction Certificate”, which do not involve ongoing classification surveys. And, ABS, offers a “Hull Certificate” in which they duplicate the classification process up to the point of delivery, at which time ABS involvement ends.....but, these are still pretty pricey and vague for most "cruising boat manufacturers to consider...

Of note here, the Offshore Racing Council’s Technical Committee worked with the ABS, etc. to come up with their standards for realistic scantling rules for offshore racing boats.
Which forms the "scantlings" standards of the ISAF Cat 1 and Cat 0 rules...
ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website : Home of the International Sailing Federation




4) In this next section (#4) I might voice my opinions....but, I will also give you all lots of facts and links to further info....so, I hope you all find it helpful/useful...

Now, you start to see why there have been other "standards" that have emerged...such as the ISAF, ABYC and CE, MCA, AS/NZS, etc. which can better categorize / standardize vessels for race organizers / insurers / underwriters, etc....but the ABYC and CE tend to be vague in areas of most interest to those buying a boat and sailing it offshore (have a look at the vague CE category listings, and how ineptly the ABYC evaded the issue of "lightning grounding" and/or "lightning protection" as examples!)

The GOOD news is the rest of the world pulled heavily from the ABYC standards, and almost any boat built to ABYC standards can also meet the other international standards....of course with some such as the RCD "CE" certifications, there is a LOT of paper work and third-party inspections and certifications that are required as part of their certification process....

If you care for some more details on some of these "standards", have a look here...
Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart

Information on ce marking for boats

https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm

ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website : Home of the International Sailing Federation


So, although the CE Category A / Ocean cert. is not a bad thing, it isn't close to being the "be-all, end-all" of offshore sailboat standards....
I personally think the ISAF Cat 1, and ISAF Cat 0, are the ones to shoot for here....as well as vessels built to "ABYC standards"... (and while some older boats cannot be sold as "meeting ABYC standards", or "CE Cat A" certified, because they were built before these standards were set, it does not mean they some are any less "qualified"...)

And now, as for this "CE Category A" issue....it's not that big of a deal....
Since the inception of this standard about 20 years ago, EVERY Catalina yacht made in the last 20 years, over 30' LOA, have met the CE Category A / Ocean certification standard...

Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts

* A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

(as well as all Catalina models are certified in compliance with A.B.Y.C. Standards and Recommended Practices for Small Craft....and all modern Catalina models > 26', certified in compliance with NMMA Certification Program...)
Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts


And, with the exception of some of the "square inches of hatch (or companionway) area, that would be submerged when the vessel is at 90* from vertical" standard (and a couple other minor numbers), my current 47' Catalina (a Catalina 470), meets the ISAF Cat 1 and Cat 0 standards as well...

Category 1

Races of long distance and well offshore, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...14Mo123122013-[16066].pdf

Category 0

Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5 degrees Celsius other than temporarily, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...14Mo023122013-[16065].pdf



I'd like to share my favorite ISAF regulation / standard....

1.02.1 The safety of a yacht and her crew is the sole and inescapable responsibility of the person in charge who must do his best to ensure that the yacht is fully found, thoroughly seaworthy and manned by an experienced crew who have undergone appropriate training and are physically fit to face bad weather. He must be satisfied as to the soundness of hull, spars, rigging, sails and all gear. He must ensure that all safety equipment is properly maintained and stowed and that the crew know where it is kept and how it is to be used. He shall also nominate a person to take over the responsibilities of the Person in Charge in the event of his incapacitation.

In my opinion this is the best "standard" around....but, hey I'm old-fashioned!!

So, there are many "production boats" that are CE Category A / Ocean certified, and some even meet (or come close to meeting) the ISAF Cat 1 and Cat 0 standards....

I mean no disrespect to the RCD "CE" Category A / Ocean standard/certification, but in my opinion, the ISAF Cat 1 and Cat 0 standards are certainly much more comparable to real "non-trade-wind" ocean passages....
I mean, in my opinion, a force 8 wind and seas of 13' might be fine for milk-run comparisons, but are hardly a standard for the less-well-traveled routes.....where I'd say force 10 winds (50-55kts) and seas of 25' - 30' are not uncommon, and what I've experienced crossing the N. Atlantic myself...

Even if you don't want to dig thru pages of arcane specs, if you just compare the wording of the outline of the "standards", you can see that even though there are but a few words that are different, the differences are actually NOT minor/subtle, but are rather substantial...

CE Cat A / Ocean:
"conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient"

ISAF Cat 1:
"Races of long distance and well offshore, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance."

ISAF Cat 0:
"Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5 degrees Celsius other than temporarily, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance."




Again, in this section (#4) I might have voiced my opinions....but, I have also given you all lots of facts and links to further info....so, I hope you all find it helpful/useful...



So, Smackdayy, I hope the facts above (and my opinions following them) are helpful to you and others here...


Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie


P.S. If you guys want to see how/why Catalina's typically are listed / thought of, as a bit different than the others in the "production boat" group....you can have a look at the bios of Frank Butler and Gerry Douglas, as well as the details of how/why they make boats, and how they use mass-purchase and manufacture/production standardization to stay competitive, rather than "cutting corners"....(here are just a few sites..)

Butler, Frank - 2013 Hall of Fame

Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts

Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts

Catalina Yachts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[SimonV]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day Ralph,

Nice photos, but teh S&S 34 is not a "light" design by most standards. It is pretty conservative in all respects, as were nearly all of the S&S designs of that era. Really great boats, despite (!) having a fin keel and skeg rudder.

And the flying J boat... it is hard to imagine the exact conditions that lead
to that leap. Must have been a big bang very shortly thereafter!

Jim

Been there done that. Wide bay bar way point 2.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[smackdaddy]

ka4 - THAT is a fantastic post. Thank you!!!

[donregan]

Never a hoss couldn't be rode, never a cowboy couldn't be throwed.

[Brob2]

Originally Posted by donregan

Never a hoss couldn't be rode, never a cowboy couldn't be throwed.

Nova Scotia and a Grampian 26 wins. End of discussion!

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

I would never buy a boat, nor even include / exclude one from some arbitrary list, based on whether or not it met some standard or certification....
But, since others seem to be looking at these certifications / standards, I thought maybe you could all use some info / facts on them???

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Of note here, the Offshore Racing Council’s Technical Committee worked with the ABS, etc. to come up with their standards for realistic scantling rules for offshore racing boats.
Which forms the "scantlings" standards of the ISAF Cat 1 and Cat 0 rules...
ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website : Home of the International Sailing Federation


4) In this next section (#4) I might voice my opinions....but, I will also give you all lots of facts and links to further info....so, I hope you all find it helpful/useful...

Now, you start to see why there have been other "standards" that have emerged...such as the ISAF, ABYC and CE, MCA, AS/NZS, etc. which can better categorize / standardize vessels for race organizers / insurers / underwriters, etc....but the ABYC and CE tend to be vague in areas of most interest to those buying a boat and sailing it offshore (have a look at the vague CE category listings, and how ineptly the ABYC evaded the issue of "lightning grounding" and/or "lightning protection" as examples!)

The GOOD news is the rest of the world pulled heavily from the ABYC standards, and almost any boat built to ABYC standards can also meet the other international standards....of course with some such as the RCD "CE" certifications, there is a LOT of paper work and third-party inspections and certifications that are required as part of their certification process....

If you care for some more details on some of these "standards", have a look here...
Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart

Information on ce marking for boats

https://www.abycinc.org/standards/purpose.cfm

ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website : Home of the International Sailing Federation


So, although the CE Category A / Ocean cert. is not a bad thing, it isn't close to being the "be-all, end-all" of offshore sailboat standards....
I personally think the ISAF Cat 1, and ISAF Cat 0, are the ones to shoot for here....as well as vessels built to "ABYC standards"... (and while some older boats cannot be sold as "meeting ABYC standards", or "CE Cat A" certified, because they were built before these standards were set, it does not mean they some are any less "qualified"...)

And now, as for this "CE Category A" issue....it's not that big of a deal....
Since the inception of this standard about 20 years ago, EVERY Catalina yacht made in the last 20 years, over 30' LOA, have met the CE Category A / Ocean certification standard...

Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts

(as well as all Catalina models are certified in compliance with A.B.Y.C. Standards and Recommended Practices for Small Craft....and all modern Catalina models > 26', certified in compliance with NMMA Certification Program...)
Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts


And, with the exception of some of the "square inches of hatch (or companionway) area, that would be submerged when the vessel is at 90* from vertical" standard (and a couple other minor numbers), my current 47' Catalina (a Catalina 470), meets the ISAF Cat 1 and Cat 0 standards as well...

Category 1

Races of long distance and well offshore, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...14Mo123122013-[16066].pdf

Category 0

Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5 degrees Celsius other than temporarily, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...14Mo023122013-[16065].pdf



I'd like to share my favorite ISAF regulation / standard....

In my opinion this is the best "standard" around....but, hey I'm old-fashioned!!

So, there are many "production boats" that are CE Category A / Ocean certified, and some even meet (or come close to meeting) the ISAF Cat 1 and Cat 0 standards....

I mean no disrespect to the RCD "CE" Category A / Ocean standard/certification, but in my opinion, the ISAF Cat 1 and Cat 0 standards are certainly much more comparable to real "non-trade-wind" ocean passages....

I mean, in my opinion, a force 8 wind and seas of 13' might be fine for milk-run comparisons, but are hardly a standard for the less-well-traveled routes.....where I'd say force 10 winds (50-55kts) and seas of 25' - 30' are not uncommon, and what I've experienced crossing the N. Atlantic myself...

Even if you don't want to dig thru pages of arcane specs, if you just compare the wording of the outline of the "standards", you can see that even though there are but a few words that are different, the differences are actually NOT minor/subtle, but are rather substantial...

CE Cat A / Ocean:
"conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient"

ISAF Cat 1:
"Races of long distance and well offshore, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance."

ISAF Cat 0:
"Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5 degrees Celsius other than temporarily, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance."


Again, in this section (#4) I might have voiced my opinions....but, I have also given you all lots of facts and links to further info....so, I hope you all find it helpful/useful...


So, Smackdayy, I hope the facts above (and my opinions following them) are helpful to you and others here...

ka4 - I wanted to make it clear that I, too, don't think CE Cat A is an end-all, be-all. As JonE can attest, I also prefer the ISAF regs like you. I'm using the Cat 1 standards to prep our boat (most of them anyway). But even that is a pretty high bar for general cruising.

The reason I bring up CE Cat A in this thread is that it is - at least - an agreed, recognized standard across the industry. No, it's not the Gold Standard but it's FAR, FAR better than forum opinion which can be downright ludicrous at times.

Anyway, thanks again for a great post.

[TanzerTom]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

I think the difference is that you seem to directly equate "coastal boat" with "production boat". That's not necessarily correct.

Again, to be clear, this thread is about Cat A rated production boats. Those are not "coastal boats" - ;N=they are "blue boats" to use your terminology.

From this thread there seems to be disagreement on the value of an A category rating. If the rating changes with circumstances like number of folk on board and capacity for liquids, to me the rating is not that useful. May be to others. I tend to distrust broadly generalized classifications of anything, especially women I do notice very few coastal cruiser type boats of any build quality being in great use in areas such as the coast of Scotland and anywhere around the Scandinavian countries or anywhere else there is that type of seas to contend with. Nor do I see many the boats that are used there in great abundance in SE USA or the Caribbean. There are reasons for that. For me personally, it's a moot point. I'm realistic enough to know I'm not going to be crossing the Atlantic or Pacific. While many sailors have romanticized visions of doing so, relatively few ever will. Some will feed that vision by having a heavy displacement, full keel, huge liquid capacity, so called blue water boat. A mass produced boat, while possibly capable of making a crossing, will not meet that psychological need.

As for the thread being about Cat A boats being blue water or coastal boats, I'd say the real proof is in the pudding: How people use them and how well they meets the needs of those that do. "Blue water" boats don't meet my coastal cruising needs. Many of the Cat A rated boats do. Does that mean Cat A boats are only for coastal cruising? Hardly. Does being Cat A mean it's a "blue water" boat? Maybe by definition but certainly not by practice.

Lots of different opinions expressed on this subject and I've certainly benefited from exploring the questions raised. It has caused me to look at and consider many issues my inland sailing has not exposed me to. Your insistence that if a boat is rated Cat A it's perfectly fine for blue water use has been contradicted by others. That conflict has proven valuable to me and for that I thank you.

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by JulieMac

Why is it that all the videos of fair weather fun are shot by people in light duty, production boats? Whereas the Force 8 videos are shot by people on large ships or heavy displacement sailboats?

Is it that the people on the 15,000 or 20,000 lbs. clorox bottles are hunkering down below listening to the groaning of their flexing boats, and praying for their lives??

julie -- do you sail?? did you read the postings here?? if you had you would have noted we did a 2 person crossing of the atlantic and spent 3 days in winds from 25-35k - is that close enough to force 8 for you? and we did not hunker down and pray for our lives or ect. we simply sailed on and the boat handled well.

[robert sailor]

Good post Tanzer,

You are right about the CE stickers, its a tag the manufactures dreamed up to enable them to produce boats that met a standard even if that standard does not mean very much.
You are also correct in taking real experiences above a CE tag because pretty much all of us will tend to believe in something that has been there and done that.

That aside don't believe that because you have this sticker that you now have something special that was designed to take whatever the sea has to offer.

The posts showing 40 foot entry level boats sailing offshore waters doesn't mean much when a solo Japanese sailor can sail around the world in cluding Cape Horn in a little plywood boat simply proving that it is not the boat but the sailor in it. I am not suggesting that it doesn't make sense to have as much going for you as possible so it does make sense to buy the best boat you can if you plan on doing a lot of offshore sailing.