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Old 03-01-2015, 10:19   #121
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Julie Mor View Post
And I would say a bluewater boat would be one that exceeds that. Because if you're out there, beyond the reach of immediate help, you want a boat that can take whatever Mother Nature can dish out.

Now that we're on the subject of definitions, how do you define "production boat?"
In these "blue water" debates, production boats are typically defined by the leading producers:

Beneteau
Jeanneau
Hunter
Catalina

But there are many, many more out there. Just have a look at Polux's "Interesting Boats" blog. He's assembled a freakin' encyclopedia of modern boats. One of the best I've ever seen. Vigor should be envious.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:21   #122
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Can you guys please explain the point you're trying to make above? If I recall, both of you have big, heavy, traditionally "bluewater" boats - yet you're both advocating that sailors can go around the world in vessels that are completely the opposite of what you yourselves own?

Hmmm. That's very strange.

For the record, though I obviously believe, as I said in the beginning, that any of the leading Cat A production boats can safely and comfortably take you virtually anywhere you want to go in the world - I don't adhere to the above posters' advice that doing so in bathtubs makes any sense whatsoever. I would caution readers against this kind of advice. It's dangerous.
Who's advocating or giving advice to go sailing in bathtubs or any other type of boat?? Or since you are getting pushback are you embarking on your provocative phase?

And why should what particular vessel a poster may own influence what he/she recommends to others? Try not to confuse pride of ownership with a fragile ego.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:21   #123
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Can you provide some examples of these keels falling off and boats breaking apart? I know of a couple production boats (out of thousands) such as Cheeki Rafiki and Blue Pearl that had catastrophic endings - but both of those also had questionable usage/maintenance/repair issues prior to the failures. I also know of other "bluewater brand" boats (Moodys, etc.) that had similar problems such as rudder failures/leaks/etc. - at sea and even in the ICW. Again, these things happen regardless of the brand.

So, I'm very interested in your additional examples.
Actually Smack there was a Moody many many years ago in a far away land that had a skeg failure, none in the last 40 or 50 years that I know about other than those damaged in collisions which I think is a much better record than your favourite brand Hunter which seems to be in the dozens.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:24   #124
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I agree...where are the examples of these "few very vocal people"...
Or are you just making **** up...na....you wouldn't be doing that would you?

Or Maybe it's this thread you are talking about? But I didn't see any Production Boat Bashing in it yet....so where did your straw man go....to Oz in search of a brain?

Hunter sinks at Catalina due to bow cleat failure
That's a strange one. Not much information on what really happened.

Of course, it was on a mooring. Not in blue water. Like I said - coastal sailing can be treacherous. Heh-heh.

BTW - did you hear about MarkJ's Bene riding out a hurricane?
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:27   #125
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Without decent facts, we're rather like a bunch of medieval scholastics discussing pinhead-dancing angels. Unfortunately, US Coast Guard statistics are aggregated and dominated by inland/near-coastal small motorcraft, and news stories are going to be uneven in their coverage of sailing accidents. And accidents and failures often have multiple contributors; sometimes manufacturer goofs share the blame with owner lack of maintenance or carelessness.

After 20 or 30 years, * some * Benehuntalinas will be in better shape and better equipped than some gold platers, and that's maybe assuming that all manufacturers of ritzy boats necessarily always build to higher standards than all production builders. And a thick hull might not always be better than a thinner hull if production quality control was lousy... or maybe the steel-hull folks will laugh at anyone who feels smug because of a few more mm of plastic.

Modern electronics can reduce, but not eliminate bumpy water encounters ... provided the crew know how to use the electronics well in combination with good judgment and seamanship. Without good judgment, it may be more like the four-wheel-drive idiots who just use their 4x4s to get stuck that much deeper and further from help.

One thing we don't always know is how well prepared were the boats and crews who got into trouble. And we know even less about the boats who didn't get in trouble. Or about the boats and crews who didn't get in trouble, but gave up on cruising because they and their boats were ill prepared and had an unpleasant time.

And maybe the F8 is less scary than the thought of weeks of slatting in doldrums. While working in a bilge with lousy access and ventilation. With the rum gone.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:27   #126
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Why don't we just stick to the topic at hand, fellas? That is, examples of production boats doing cool things in bluewater.

These are far more helpful to sailors than discussing my "crack habit" or "brain search" or "fragile id". That kind of thing typically leads to thread closures - and I have no interest in that.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:32   #127
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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The translation for this seems to be that I provide actual evidence for the points I make when others can't or won't.
Yes Smack we have seen some of your evidence like fairing a keel you claim is hiding damage when it is just fairing, dangerous, Bingo! You are a hell of a Goggler no question but you have issues figuring it all out.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:32   #128
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Here's something I would like to learn from a thread like this- If you got a production boat, secondhand say 4 to 8 years old, what would be the first things you would look at upgrading to bring the boat to a level that would make you comfortable/reassured about an ocean crossing.

Yes, a lot would depend upon the previous use and condition of the boat, but perhaps there are a few common things that would be looked at to upgrade on an immediate basis. What would those be?
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:33   #129
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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With the rum gone.
The rum's gone? That's it! I'm outta here!
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:34   #130
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Without decent facts, we're rather like a bunch of medieval scholastics discussing pinhead-dancing angels. Unfortunately, US Coast Guard statistics are aggregated and dominated by inland/near-coastal small motorcraft, and news stories are going to be uneven in their coverage of sailing accidents. And accidents and failures often have multiple contributors; sometimes manufacturer goofs share the blame with owner lack of maintenance or carelessness.

After 20 or 30 years, * some * Benehuntalinas will be in better shape and better equipped than some gold platers, and that's maybe assuming that all manufacturers of ritzy boats necessarily always build to higher standards than all production builders. And a thick hull might not always be better than a thinner hull if production quality control was lousy... or maybe the steel-hull folks will laugh at anyone who feels smug because of a few more mm of plastic.

Modern electronics can reduce, but not eliminate bumpy water encounters ... provided the crew know how to use the electronics well in combination with good judgment and seamanship. Without good judgment, it may be more like the four-wheel-drive idiots who just use their 4x4s to get stuck that much deeper and further from help.

One thing we don't always know is how well prepared were the boats and crews who got into trouble. And we know even less about the boats who didn't get in trouble. Or about the boats and crews who didn't get in trouble, but gave up on cruising because they and their boats were ill prepared and had an unpleasant time.

And maybe the F8 is less scary than the thought of weeks of slatting in doldrums. While working in a bilge with lousy access and ventilation. With the rum gone.
This is EXACTLY right rg. It's good to see some balanced perspective. Thanks.

One thing I'm growing more and more interested in in this regard is the longevity of modern production boats. What is the "half-life" of these boats really for intended use?

We often see the discussion that because the older blue water brands were so "heavily built" they will last "forever". That's obviously not true - but where is that intersecting line?

It's an interesting engineering question.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:35   #131
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by fozrunner View Post
Here's something I would like to learn from a thread like this- If you got a production boat, secondhand say 4 to 8 years old, what would be the first things you would look at upgrading to bring the boat to a level that would make you comfortable/reassured about an ocean crossing.

Yes, a lot would depend upon the previous use and condition of the boat, but perhaps there are a few common things that would be looked at to upgrade on an immediate basis. What would those be?
Do you realize that production boats are almost all the boats out there, the term production boat make me laugh!!
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:37   #132
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

We just purchased a 1992 Pacific Seacraft 37 and are in the process of renovating back to new(ish).
We have been very impressed with the build quality and perhaps, as important, the excellent after sales support from Thumper Brooks (Pacific Seacraft's yard manager in North Carolina).
For us the combination of good sailing characteristics and confidence in the builder were high on our list.
Paul and Maureen


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Old 03-01-2015, 10:37   #133
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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That's a strange one. Not much information on what really happened.

Of course, it was on a mooring. Not in blue water. Like I said - coastal sailing can be treacherous. Heh-heh.

BTW - did you hear about MarkJ's Bene riding out a hurricane?
MarkJ was tied to a mooring during the hurricane, not taking anything away from him but it seems that the lines he connected to the mooring ball held the boat but other than that what are you trying to say???
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:39   #134
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Julie Mor View Post
And I would say a bluewater boat would be one that exceeds that. Because if you're out there, beyond the reach of immediate help, you want a boat that can take whatever Mother Nature can dish out.

Now that we're on the subject of definitions, how do you define "production boat?"



Another fine question, and one I've posed on these threads before with no reply. After all, every boat is "produced" by someone. And there are plenty of boats with very long production runs that for some reason don't seem to fit some's definition of a production boat, such as the Oyster. I posit that what is really meant is boats below a certain price point.
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Old 03-01-2015, 10:41   #135
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Yes Smack we have seen some of your evidence like fairing a keel you claim is hiding damage when it is just fairing, dangerous, Bingo! You are a hell of a Goggler no question but you have issues figuring it all out.
But this is what's interesting about this argument you keep wanting to engage in Robert...in this particular instance from another thread you insist the photos indicated just "fairing a keel" on that boat - when the guys actually working on the boat used the term "repairs".

Now, I don't know exactly what those repairs entailed. But neither do you. So how can you be so certain it is just fairing in those photos?

And how am I being misleading calling it a repair when they yard guys themselves used this very word?

Again, let's just stick to facts. There's no reason to get personal in this stuff.

Cool?
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