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Old 18-10-2015, 13:59   #1111
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Does the year it was built make any difference??
I would think it would. Consider if it was a 37' Hunter, for example. That could describe boats from the Cherubini era to today - quite a difference in models and builds.

I assume Bavaria has made many 42' models over the years? Much would depend on precisely what "fairly new" means.

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Old 18-10-2015, 14:11   #1112
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I would think it would. Consider if it was a 37' Hunter, for example. That could describe boats from the Cherubini era to today - quite a difference in models and builds.

I assume Bavaria has made many 42' models over the years? Much would depend on precisely what "fairly new" means.

Mark
OK I hear ya but I went by the description of fairly new and if it is say in the last 5-8 years what difference would the age make in the quality of the overall build?
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Old 18-10-2015, 14:21   #1113
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Does the year it was built make any difference??
yes, some would say that a 10 year old boat is a fairly recent boat. Some would even say that a 15 or 20 year old boat is a fairly recent boat. So it is important to know of what we are talking about, if a boat needing repairs after 7 or 8 years or a two year old boat needing repairs. It makes a big difference, at least for me and it is always useful to know of what we are talking about.
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Old 18-10-2015, 14:37   #1114
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I thought we were going to see pictures of how the boat was built and areas it was done poorly.
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Old 18-10-2015, 15:09   #1115
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
if it is say in the last 5-8 years what difference would the age make in the quality of the overall build?
Depends on if there was a model or build change in that timeframe.

As an analogy, a 1972 Ford Mustang is quite different than a 1973...

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Old 18-10-2015, 15:12   #1116
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
yes, some would say that a 10 year old boat is a fairly recent boat. Some would even say that a 15 or 20 year old boat is a fairly recent boat. So it is important to know of what we are talking about, if a boat needing repairs after 7 or 8 years or a two year old boat needing repairs. It makes a big difference, at least for me and it is always useful to know of what we are talking about.
As someone cruising on a 85 year old carvel planked wood boat, yeah, it's all relative

I call anything fiberglass a "newer boat" I consider anything newer than about 1990 "new" LOL. Totally out of touch with reality.

PS -- about the topic "production boats fit for blue water"...skipping the stability curves and whatnot...something with enough structural rigidity to keep the deck/hull seam tight. If owners are complaining about leaks on the particular production boat, it's probably NOT the ideal offshore boat. reliable hardware and rig design--if the production boat has a reputation for losing the rig (e.g. certain Hunters have problems making it back up the Baja on the bash...as I recall no backstay and no ability for runners) probably a pass on those. Stout and strong portholes (none too big), and a cockpit that isn't too big, doesn't drain into the companionway if full, doesn't have lockers open to cockpit and open to below both, well sealed lazarette doors. Ability to dog-down and secure all openings for that matter.

Lots of production boats to choose from
Fair winds,
Brenda
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Old 18-10-2015, 22:53   #1117
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Euro boat I'm currently working on has all manuals and schematics in German. Dealer says he might be able to get me an English manual at some point. No online info or support from builder. My German is slowly getting better. Stuff like "bilgenpumpen" is obvious. The schematics are where it all falls apart...
A German working on a US boat would probably have a similar complaint
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Old 18-10-2015, 22:58   #1118
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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The Varianta 37 does not only sails well as it sails better than the others in their class, due to being lighter, having a very good hull an updated keel and rudder. You have to go to more expensive cruiser racers to sail faster (for the size) on a mass production boat. A great buy for the ones that put sailing first, have little money and do not mind to live in a true Ikea interior that can always be bettered with time as well as the boat equipment. Never understood why Varianta is not a big sales success, or maybe I do and that just means that sailors real want a better interior as a priority instead of sailing potential. ;-)
I think the problem the Varianta has is:
a) Lots of good second hand boats available for the price conscious.
b) Add 20% to your budget and you can get yourself a Jeanneau SO 389 in stead, which is also a great sailboat, and has an interior the wife will like better.

Well, not just the wife. I'm the cook. And the one thing that I find disappointing in the Varianta is the galley. I do like the general look of the interior.
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Old 18-10-2015, 23:39   #1119
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
A German working on a US boat would probably have a similar complaint
Far more Germans speak English than Americans speak German...

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Old 19-10-2015, 00:30   #1120
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Far more Germans speak English than Americans speak German...
True. But not the point I wanted to make :-)
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Old 19-10-2015, 03:46   #1121
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
I think the problem the Varianta has is:
a) Lots of good second hand boats available for the price conscious.
b) Add 20% to your budget and you can get yourself a Jeanneau SO 389 in stead, which is also a great sailboat, and has an interior the wife will like better.

Well, not just the wife. I'm the cook. And the one thing that I find disappointing in the Varianta is the galley. I do like the general look of the interior.
Yes but you forget to mention that the Varianta 37 is a faster boat (well that does not seem to mind to many) and I thought you were wrong about the price but when i checked out I got a surprise: The Jeanneau standard costs with French VAT 140 688 Euros with French Vat and the Varianta 130 000 euros (with some few extras) while a Hanse 385 costs standard 123 000 euros?

Voilier HANSE 385 11.40 m offre Earlybird Hanse Concessionnaire bateau Marseille - MB Yachting

Anyway last year I was at Dusseldorf buying for a friend a 37/38 ft sailing boat and a Jeanneau 389 fully equipped went for close to 200 000 euros (with VAT).

Edit: After all it seems that you can have it at much better price than the 130 000 even with a lot more extras: 119 000 euros. It seems a good deal for a decently equipped boat and out of that price difference you refereed to the Jeanneau:

http://www.passion-nautic-club.com/d...ta-varianta-37
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Old 19-10-2015, 04:15   #1122
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
A few years a go the Frenchman Olivier Poncin decided to launch a new brand. Het build a new state of the art factory, and had a series of yachts designed.
His aim was to build good value yachts by optimizing the whole production process as much as possible. For example, the interior was modularized, and all yachts for example had the same galley, the same head etc.. He also used new ideas, like using aluminium profiles to slot furniture panels together.
The result was the "Harmony" brand.
The sailing press was generally quite impressed. The boats sailed well, the construction was good and the sailing hardware was well spec'ed. A good value for money boat.
But unfortunately 2008 happend, and Harmony ceased trading.
But not before Poncin had prepared another brand: Locwind. Of these only a handfull Locwind 16M were build. A pity, as those looked like a perfect live-aboard cruiser board.

And have a look at the Varianta: Use the hull moulds a a discontinued Hanse model, build a boat with good sailing hardware, so that it sails well, but just put the minimum in interior confort in. Just asume that your customers well want to sail first, and then fit in more comfort later. Not a wrong asumption to make...
LoL, The sailing press was quite impressed.... I'm not, meanwhile last year we fix 2 of those Harmony from Dream yacht charters and honestly they are piece of crap in every aspect, interiors, hulls, rigs, this is the the classic disposable boat after few years ,,,,, the price is quite good but they don't reflect quality in any aspect..... beware with this boats....
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Old 19-10-2015, 06:46   #1123
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes but you forget to mention that the Varianta 37 is a faster boat (well that does not seem to mind to many) and I thought you were wrong about the price but when i checked out I got a surprise: The Jeanneau standard costs with French VAT 140 688 Euros with French Vat and the Varianta 130 000 euros (with some few extras) while a Hanse 385 costs standard 123 000 euros?
Comparing boats isn't easy. The Varianta is faster by virtue of being lighter. However few people sail their boats "light".

For prices I just looked at advertised standard prices without options, as in both cases you get a boat you can sail, with sails included, but nothing extra. I asume that adding 20000 euro worth of options will cost the same for most boats...

The base price advertised on the Varianta Website is 93000, inclusive of 19% VAT. That's a very sharp price. But I overlooked that the Jeannau website lists prices ex. VAT.
For me that's OK, as I intend not to pay the VAT anyway :-) Adding options does quickly add up however.

That said, I'm looking forward to travelling to Düsseldorf in January...
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Old 19-10-2015, 08:42   #1124
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Thanks for the clarification.

Interestingly enough, Catalina is one of the few production builders who do NOT do that.

They designed and built some very successful boats that had among the longest production builds known in the industry. Boats like the C22 (over 12,000 !!! of the original model), C30 (over 6,000 before they introduced the C309 and now the C315, essentially the same boats with improved systems), my C34 (1,801 from 1986 to 2007; followed by the C355, same size & layout with improved systems) and the C36 (2,000 /- hulls, early 80s to 2006). During this period they also produced the highly successful but smaller C25s & C27s.

In terms of volume, for their coastal cruiser sized boats, from 1986 to 1989 a thousand C34s were built and sold, while at the same time the C30 and C36 maintained very healthy production runs, too. Much of the detailing was identical or very, very similar for these three yachts: engines, water systems, mufflers, sinks, light fixtures, deck hardware, etc.

Smart design was the key. Instead of different models of the same size, brand loyalty, because of the quality of the product, had skippers moving up in size with the same builder.

They did exactly the opposite of your suggestion, which, BTW, Hunter did follow.

Catalina's business model was to do a good boat, obtain feedback from owners and active owners associations, make improvements and keep the same boats in production. They did it for many, many years without advertising!!!

An example of quality is ACCESS. I noted the post earlier where the poster said Bavarias' access to wiring was poor. I can reach EVERYTHING on my boat. EVERYTHING. We had a charter Beneteau 35, two actually over the years, that required me to rip the entire aft cabin apart of get to the oil dipstick. Holy Cow! On my boat, I don't even have to expose the engine under the companionway stairs, I just open a little door and check it easily. I tell folks who are looking at new or used boats to do the oil dipstick check. If they can't, then no one else will has has in the past either.

I'm not arguing with you, just presenting some facts. I agree, too, that there are a number of ways different vendors produce different things that are pretty much the same to the average Joe who knows nothing about boats, i.e., "Hey, Honey, look at all those boats out there, don't they all look alike?"
Sorry to add to a thread that is currently 75 pages!!!! But, in my experience in working and having boats in the Pacific Northwest, there are many, many happy, satisfied Catalina customers. I would not have one but this is because I want an entirely different kind of boat, not because the Catalinas are poorly designed an/or produced. As a tradesman, I hated working on most European, and many American, boats (disclaimer: not that many European boats in this area and my boatyard specialized in powerboats so I don't have a huge amount of experience with many of the European brands) but they were really hard to do work on because of extremely poor access to the engines, wire runs, etc. Not all brands for sure, but the common denominator were mass produced "pan" style boats where the interior is dropped down in one piece on to the hull stringers and bonded in place.

Unlike Catalina's most did not go out of their way to provide good access to systems. Poor access can double the cost for a technician who must troubleshoot and fix something or to add something. The DIY owner has to deal with the same problems only it is only his/her time that is lost. And quality could be hit or miss. Not sure why that was.

But I have dozens of friends and acquaintances who have Catalina's who use them for coastal cruising and they are by and large very, very happy with them. They allow them to go sailing without much muss or fuss. They don't automatically trade them in of new models like people do for cars though. They may go up in size but once they reach their sweet-spot they keep the boat for 10-20 years. Cars break down much quicker and you can't keep them going without basically rebuilding them.

There are those people who want the latest and greatest to "keep up with the Joneses" in American lingo, but Catalina owners seem to be more practical. There are some owners who seem to apologize to new friends for having "only" a Catalina - which they shouldn't. But they take their boats far and wide in our cruising paradise up here - often - for long trips. I would not hesitate to recommend Catalina as a good choice for the people who like the type of sailing they provide. And, they have given opportunities to so many sailors to have a good boat that they can afford.

And ALL new boats can have problems, many major. And customer support after the sale can be problematic. It definitely should be a part of any selection of a new boat. That is not necessarily easy to evaluate but it is important.
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Old 19-01-2016, 20:18   #1125
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Where did 1125 go?
Smackdaddy's post was just here...
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