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Old 28-08-2015, 12:21   #1081
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by jdhbulseye View Post
If you are the type of person that routinely does things like use a 20 lb sledge hammer to swat at flies then yes. Why on earth would you burn unnecessary dough on the boat when you could plow it into other things?

Use the right tool for the job at hand.
Wow, way to jump into the forum with both feet on your first post. Welcome to CF.
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Old 28-08-2015, 12:36   #1082
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Wow, way to jump into the forum with both feet on your first post. Welcome to CF.
Figured what the heck. Been learning about all this stuff for years and dreaming (I rarely jump into anything blind). Closer now than ever and still kind of deciding on a production boat. Not sure what all is in the cards for my travel plans but at the least there will be coastal trips and I am hoping a whole lot more than that.
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Old 28-08-2015, 12:39   #1083
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by jdhbulseye View Post
Figured what the heck. Been learning about all this stuff for years and dreaming (I rarely jump into anything blind). Closer now than ever and still kind of deciding on a production boat. Not sure what all is in the cards for my travel plans but at the least there will be coastal trips and I am hoping a whole lot more than that.
Good to hear and best of luck accomplishing those plans. I also noticed you've been a member since 2012 but didn't post until today. So I guess, technically, you didn't just "jump right in"!
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Old 17-10-2015, 11:32   #1084
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Hey , I'm a novice sailor , taking lessons now with the intention of retiring on a boat with the wife . Why are Bavarias more reasonably priced compared to other production boats .
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Old 17-10-2015, 11:42   #1085
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Why are Bavarias more reasonably priced compared to other production boats .
Because, like most (but not all) things in life, you get what you pay for.

Not all sales are bargains and not all bargains are sales.

You have to do the research and homework to make comparisons.

Rigging, tankage, stowage, hardware, engine size & type...
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Old 17-10-2015, 11:48   #1086
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

And when You have compared the items listed by Stu You will see that in most cases the are the same, maybe a site down If the PO didn't spend some extra.
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Old 17-10-2015, 11:55   #1087
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Because, like most (but not all) things in life, you get what you pay for.

Not all sales are bargains and not all bargains are sales.

You have to do the research and homework to make comparisons.

Rigging, tankage, stowage, hardware, engine size & type...

I don't think it is a fair answer since it gives the impression that the Bavarias offer less and it all depends on what you want. I would say that the Bavaria offer is very similar in quality of the one of other similar mass produced brands, except on the interior that even being of about the same quality is simpler (on the cruising line).

Bavaria was the first to introduce robotics in large scale and that helped to put the prices down and they also use the same hardware in different boats. All that helps to bring the price down. Even if comparing similarly equipped boats Bavaria are cheaper (at least in Europe) but not a big difference.

If you look at the line of Bavaria Vision, that has a better interior, then the price is similar to other brands but I would not say that the cruising line has an inferior quality in what regards strength, hardware or sailing potential.
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Old 17-10-2015, 12:34   #1088
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I don't think it is a fair answer since it gives the impression that the Bavarias offer less and it all depends on what you want.
That is NOT what I said, implied, suggested or meant.

What I DID say was he should do a comparison to find out what and how any manufacturer can make a similar product for less money.

Similar requires research to find minor (or major) differences.

Until that is done, HOW the manufacturer does it becomes the last thing to determine.

Your point is well taken about HOW they do it.

But until he determines that Bavaria has EQUAL features to the boat to which he is making the comparison, HOW they do it is moot.

If all features are equal, then their technique certainly become important and meaningful.

Quote:
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and they also use the same hardware in different boats.
For example, Catalina has been doing this since the 80s.
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Old 17-10-2015, 17:07   #1089
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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That is NOT what I said, implied, suggested or meant.

What I DID say was he should do a comparison to find out what and how any manufacturer can make a similar product for less money.

Similar requires research to find minor (or major) differences.

Until that is done, HOW the manufacturer does it becomes the last thing to determine.

Your point is well taken about HOW they do it.

But until he determines that Bavaria has EQUAL features to the boat to which he is making the comparison, HOW they do it is moot.

If all features are equal, then their technique certainly become important and meaningful.



For example, Catalina has been doing this since the 80s.
Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Catalina may be doing that but Bavaria makes several thousand yachts a year so the scale is just another. The large number of items bought to each supplier also warrants them big discounts that reflect later on a lower boat price.
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Old 17-10-2015, 17:56   #1090
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Not so sure that the volume discounts are as much as many people seem to think. Catalina owns Garhauer Marine which is a high volume builder of SS boat accessories and I am sure they sell in volumes that are easily in reach of any of the major builders. I might add I have used several of their products and find them to be well built and excellent value. That aside Catalina simply spends more money building their boats because they use different materials. Little stuff like real lead keels rather than cast iron and certainly a higher level of finish in their interiors. They get their savings by building the same model for several years and are not inclined to introduce new models every year. I'm not a big fan of any of the lower cost production built boats but Catalina produces a pretty decent product for the price point they are in.
Where the German and French entry level production builders really lead the market is in design and good value but quality, not so much in my opinion.
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Old 17-10-2015, 19:26   #1091
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Where the German and French entry level production builders really lead the market is in design and good value but quality, not so much in my opinion.
Robert, while I agree with your post in general, I must ask if there is poor quality, how can there be good value?

Jim
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Old 17-10-2015, 20:53   #1092
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Robert, while I agree with your post in general, I must ask if there is poor quality, how can there be good value?

Jim
Fair question Jim. I didn't say poor quality but I certainly never suggested they were built to a high quality standard because I don't think they are. Full liners,brass through hulls, fender washers under main sheets and deck cleats don't pass the smell test of high quality in my opinion but on average they seem to get the job done for most of their buyers so I think they are considered as high value to the thousands of people buying them each year. In other words they seem to have it figured out and know their buyers well and are giving them exactly what they want and are willing to pay for.
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Old 17-10-2015, 21:33   #1093
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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In other words they seem to have it figured out and know their buyers well and are giving them exactly what they want and are willing to pay for.
Agreed.

Sounds a bit like Detroit in the 70's!

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Old 18-10-2015, 04:50   #1094
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Catalina owns Garhauer Marine...
Robert, I was always under the impression that Garhauer was a family business owned by Bill F., not Catalina.

They do provide the hardware TO Catalina Yachts.

Can you please let me know where you "found" that Catalina owns Garhauer?

Thanks.
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Old 18-10-2015, 05:24   #1095
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Robert, I was always under the impression that Garhauer was a family business owned by Bill F., not Catalina.

They do provide the hardware TO Catalina Yachts.

Can you please let me know where you "found" that Catalina owns Garhauer?

Thanks.
Hey Stu,
I may be wrong but I was told it was a family business and the families were connected.
That aside my point was that I am very skeptical about all the so called savings that large boat builders pass on to their buyers because they buy in volume.
I ran the largest home building company in our province for 10 years and we also bought everything in volume and at a savings over smaller builders but we also had a very large advertising budget that more than made up the difference. I believe that the large boat builders sell for cheaper because they have learned to build cheaper. That can include everything from building with full liners that allow the building to go much quicker with less skilled labor, the use of robotics and using less material overall. Techniques that allow parts to be glued rather than glassed in and precut/prefinished interiors that are part of the production line. The idea that I'm paying way less but I'm getting way more is no different than the housing business. We call them poundage buyers and they make up the bulk of all markets. Thats why 90% of the housing is basically built down to a price point....thats what the customer is willing to pay for.
The biggest competitor any company has is the cheaper product you built and sold 2 years ago so you play the game of always changing your product so if the customer wants it he can't buy it in the used market. Thats what succesful manufacturing companies do if they want to remain in business. That keeps you out there buying the latest I phone or the latest Honda or the latest Beneteau...its how the game is played.
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