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Old 19-04-2015, 18:19   #1066
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You are going to drool with envy when you see a catamaran back up into a slip (no rudders even necessary)



Mark

The ability to hang out in 2' of water is a big selling point for a cat to me.

Following the procedure required to back a full keel isn't for everyone. It can be a mite counter intuitive. Right rudder and a burst of forward throttle to bring the the stern to port while moving backwards.

A single handle for shift and throttle simplifies it a bit for me.


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Old 19-04-2015, 22:58   #1067
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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The problem with your logic is that a brand with 50 manufactured boats has practically no statistical meaning of possible design flaw if some or any of them have had a rudder problem. With a big brand with hundreds of boats of their every specific design it becomes obvious when some of the models manufactured in certain years do.. That's a statistical fact and there's nothing you can do about it
But the statistical fact may well be that rudder problems are very rare with Beneteaus...

It's like with my doctor. He sees mostly patients whose native language is German. Does he come to the conclusion that German speakers are more prone to get ill?
No.

It's the same with repair yards. They only see the problems. They might not see the whole picture.
In the case of my doctor it's the fact that he is working in a German speaking area, so of course most of his patients speak German.
In the case of all those production yachts showing up in yards with rudder problem: There are just so many more of them that it would be really odd if none would turn up...
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Old 27-05-2015, 12:52   #1068
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I did the unthinkable this past weekend. I took my 1985 production boat out into the Gulf Stream. I had a wonderful time. Rudder did not fall off, mast and rigging still intact, weather was absolutely beautiful.
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Old 27-05-2015, 12:56   #1069
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I did the unthinkable this past weekend. I took my 1985 production boat out into the Gulf Stream. I had a wonderful time. Rudder did not fall off, mast and rigging still intact, weather was absolutely beautiful.

omygodomygodomygod ye didnt die ye didnt die..wtf!!!???~~~

toldje it was sailor not boat... glad ye had fun, but ye know ye made the sky fall...rodl...
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Old 27-05-2015, 13:02   #1070
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Did you update you Will first...light a candle in Church.
Good God man...you are lucky to be alive...now just keep going South until you run into Mexico or a Cheap Food Cart!
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Old 27-05-2015, 13:02   #1071
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I did the unthinkable this past weekend. I took my 1985 production boat out into the Gulf Stream. I had a wonderful time. Rudder did not fall off, mast and rigging still intact, weather was absolutely beautiful.
Then why didn't you keep going all the way to England?
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Old 27-05-2015, 13:06   #1072
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

After I made the sky fall and noticed the tilt in the earth's axis, I got kinda scared and headed back in.
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Old 27-05-2015, 13:34   #1073
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Just totaled a Catalina 42 due to hull liner/grid problems. Cost of repair exceeds the value of the boat. When we blocked the boat the first time, the keel punched up into the hull over 1"! Yes, previous groundings are involved. This boat hauled for buyers survey at sale. Yes, it failed. It will not likely ever sell. The owner is stuck with it, can't even donate it for the tax write off.
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Old 27-05-2015, 13:52   #1074
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Just totaled a Catalina 42 due to hull liner/grid problems. Cost of repair exceeds the value of the boat. When we blocked the boat the first time, the keel punched up into the hull over 1"! Yes, previous groundings are involved. This boat hauled for buyers survey at sale. Yes, it failed. It will not likely ever sell. The owner is stuck with it, can't even donate it for the tax write off.
Ooh.

Sad.
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Old 27-05-2015, 14:56   #1075
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Just totaled a Catalina 42 due to hull liner/grid problems. Cost of repair exceeds the value of the boat. When we blocked the boat the first time, the keel punched up into the hull over 1"! Yes, previous groundings are involved. This boat hauled for buyers survey at sale. Yes, it failed. It will not likely ever sell. The owner is stuck with it, can't even donate it for the tax write off.
I suppose that means water penetration? Any evidence of problems prior to hauling? Or anything that would be discoverable to a reasonably diligent owner I should say. Any idea what year? Or more to the point, any idea when liners started to be used by the industry?

Sad, but unless the owner/seller decides to keep & repair, I suppose the boat will wind up being sold for scrap. Some marine insurance policies will cover for design and/or latent defects, if applicable.
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Old 27-05-2015, 16:02   #1076
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Or more to the point, any idea when liners started to be used by the industry?
There's a big difference with liner and full liner
Full liners started with motor boat's, maybe Boston Whalers decades ago. From there the plage has spread and infected a big part of the industry.

In theory it's a great invention. That is if it's done right, you never hit anything and don't never ever have a need to inspect or repair anything. In practise it's trademark for disposable...
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Old 28-05-2015, 00:25   #1077
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
I suppose that means water penetration? Any evidence of problems prior to hauling? Or anything that would be discoverable to a reasonably diligent owner I should say. Any idea what year? Or more to the point, any idea when liners started to be used by the industry?

Sad, but unless the owner/seller decides to keep & repair, I suppose the boat will wind up being sold for scrap. Some marine insurance policies will cover for design and/or latent defects, if applicable.



Looks like major previous repairs were undertaken, including grinding and laminating the grid liner to the hull after a delamination due to grounding. However, the glass hull in way of the aft end of the keel/hull joint was saturated in diesel/oil/bilge water and the repairs failed.The front end of the engine is right next to the grid liner, and the engine bay actually drains through the liner into the keel sump. This arrangement, with oily water running right over/through the bond line of the most critical area of grid liner, is a great example of how real world conditions often confound how designers and engineers would like to think it might work in their clean offices. This damage appeared to be very well repaired, and has passed survey in it's current state twice at least. It was only picked up on by the diligent eye of long experienced lift operators and crew. When we put an experienced damage surveyor inside the boat on the ways in the lift slings and slowly lowered load onto keel blocks, the engine visibly moved forward over an inch to almost touch the liner. The surveyor was shocked. We also removed large glass repairs by prying with a chisel. I'll say no more on this one, as it's a current client. Suffice it to say I could go on and on about similar recent cases, and this one, but I don't like to discuss current client's account's. This one just struck me as quite pertinent to the discussion.
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Old 28-05-2015, 06:03   #1078
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Looks like major previous repairs were undertaken, including grinding and laminating the grid liner to the hull after a delamination due to grounding. However, the glass hull in way of the aft end of the keel/hull joint was saturated in diesel/oil/bilge water and the repairs failed.The front end of the engine is right next to the grid liner, and the engine bay actually drains through the liner into the keel sump. This arrangement, with oily water running right over/through the bond line of the most critical area of grid liner, is a great example of how real world conditions often confound how designers and engineers would like to think it might work in their clean offices. This damage appeared to be very well repaired, and has passed survey in it's current state twice at least. It was only picked up on by the diligent eye of long experienced lift operators and crew. When we put an experienced damage surveyor inside the boat on the ways in the lift slings and slowly lowered load onto keel blocks, the engine visibly moved forward over an inch to almost touch the liner. The surveyor was shocked. We also removed large glass repairs by prying with a chisel. I'll say no more on this one, as it's a current client. Suffice it to say I could go on and on about similar recent cases, and this one, but I don't like to discuss current client's account's. This one just struck me as quite pertinent to the discussion.
So would you say this is a common fault? How would a buyer notice these issues prior to offer and survey? Are all grids the same, or are some better than others. Why are they still being allowed to build in this method being so inherently dangerous?
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Old 28-08-2015, 08:21   #1079
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Wouldn't that, by any definition, include all of them?

Mark
If you are the type of person that routinely does things like use a 20 lb sledge hammer to swat at flies then yes. Why on earth would you burn unnecessary dough on the boat when you could plow it into other things?

Use the right tool for the job at hand.
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Old 28-08-2015, 08:29   #1080
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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If you are the type of person that routinely does things like use a 20 lb sledge hammer to swat at flies then yes. Why on earth would you burn unnecessary dough on the boat when you could plow it into other things?

Use the right tool for the job at hand.
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