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19-04-2015, 17:19
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#1066
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cruising the Gulf of Mexico.
Boat: 1980 Morgan 415
Posts: 1,452
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj
You are going to drool with envy when you see a catamaran back up into a slip (no rudders even necessary)…
Mark
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The ability to hang out in 2' of water is a big selling point for a cat to me.
Following the procedure required to back a full keel isn't for everyone. It can be a mite counter intuitive. Right rudder and a burst of forward throttle to bring the the stern to port while moving backwards.
A single handle for shift and throttle simplifies it a bit for me.
------------------------------
Looking for another pretty place to work on the boat.
__________________
Working on spending my children's inheritance.
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19-04-2015, 21:58
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#1067
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,324
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyDiver
The problem with your logic is that a brand with 50 manufactured boats has practically no statistical meaning of possible design flaw if some or any of them have had a rudder problem. With a big brand with hundreds of boats of their every specific design it becomes obvious when some of the models manufactured in certain years do.. That's a statistical fact and there's nothing you can do about it
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But the statistical fact may well be that rudder problems are very rare with Beneteaus...
It's like with my doctor. He sees mostly patients whose native language is German. Does he come to the conclusion that German speakers are more prone to get ill?
No.
It's the same with repair yards. They only see the problems. They might not see the whole picture.
In the case of my doctor it's the fact that he is working in a German speaking area, so of course most of his patients speak German.
In the case of all those production yachts showing up in yards with rudder problem: There are just so many more of them that it would be really odd if none would turn up...
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27-05-2015, 11:52
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#1068
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Neuse River, NC
Boat: 1984 Catalina 36
Posts: 137
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
I did the unthinkable this past weekend. I took my 1985 production boat out into the Gulf Stream. I had a wonderful time. Rudder did not fall off, mast and rigging still intact, weather was absolutely beautiful.
__________________
Paul
1984 Catalina 36
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27-05-2015, 11:56
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#1069
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cat herder, extreme blacksheep
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 18,967
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul54
I did the unthinkable this past weekend. I took my 1985 production boat out into the Gulf Stream. I had a wonderful time. Rudder did not fall off, mast and rigging still intact, weather was absolutely beautiful.
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omygodomygodomygod ye didnt die ye didnt die..wtf!!!???~~~
toldje it was sailor not boat... glad ye had fun, but ye know ye made the sky fall...rodl...
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27-05-2015, 12:02
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#1070
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,920
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Did you update you Will first...light a candle in Church.
Good God man...you are lucky to be alive...now just keep going South until you run into Mexico or a Cheap Food Cart!
__________________
Rich Boren
Cruise RO & Schenker Water Makers
Technautics CoolBlue Refrigeration
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27-05-2015, 12:02
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#1071
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul54
I did the unthinkable this past weekend. I took my 1985 production boat out into the Gulf Stream. I had a wonderful time. Rudder did not fall off, mast and rigging still intact, weather was absolutely beautiful.
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Then why didn't you keep going all the way to England?
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27-05-2015, 12:06
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#1072
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Neuse River, NC
Boat: 1984 Catalina 36
Posts: 137
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
After I made the sky fall and noticed the tilt in the earth's axis, I got kinda scared and headed back in.
__________________
Paul
1984 Catalina 36
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27-05-2015, 12:34
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#1073
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Resin Head
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Just totaled a Catalina 42 due to hull liner/grid problems. Cost of repair exceeds the value of the boat. When we blocked the boat the first time, the keel punched up into the hull over 1"! Yes, previous groundings are involved. This boat hauled for buyers survey at sale. Yes, it failed. It will not likely ever sell. The owner is stuck with it, can't even donate it for the tax write off.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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27-05-2015, 12:52
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#1074
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Seville London Eastbourne
Posts: 13,406
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
Just totaled a Catalina 42 due to hull liner/grid problems. Cost of repair exceeds the value of the boat. When we blocked the boat the first time, the keel punched up into the hull over 1"! Yes, previous groundings are involved. This boat hauled for buyers survey at sale. Yes, it failed. It will not likely ever sell. The owner is stuck with it, can't even donate it for the tax write off.
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Ooh.
Sad.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
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27-05-2015, 13:56
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#1075
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
Just totaled a Catalina 42 due to hull liner/grid problems. Cost of repair exceeds the value of the boat. When we blocked the boat the first time, the keel punched up into the hull over 1"! Yes, previous groundings are involved. This boat hauled for buyers survey at sale. Yes, it failed. It will not likely ever sell. The owner is stuck with it, can't even donate it for the tax write off.
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I suppose that means water penetration? Any evidence of problems prior to hauling? Or anything that would be discoverable to a reasonably diligent owner I should say. Any idea what year? Or more to the point, any idea when liners started to be used by the industry?
Sad, but unless the owner/seller decides to keep & repair, I suppose the boat will wind up being sold for scrap. Some marine insurance policies will cover for design and/or latent defects, if applicable.
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27-05-2015, 15:02
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#1076
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arctic Ocean
Boat: Under construction 35' ketch (and +3 smaller)
Posts: 2,731
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
Or more to the point, any idea when liners started to be used by the industry?
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There's a big difference with liner and full liner
Full liners started with motor boat's, maybe Boston Whalers decades ago. From there the plage has spread and infected a big part of the industry.
In theory it's a great invention. That is if it's done right, you never hit anything and don't never ever have a need to inspect or repair anything. In practise it's trademark for disposable...
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27-05-2015, 23:25
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#1077
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Resin Head
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile
I suppose that means water penetration? Any evidence of problems prior to hauling? Or anything that would be discoverable to a reasonably diligent owner I should say. Any idea what year? Or more to the point, any idea when liners started to be used by the industry?
Sad, but unless the owner/seller decides to keep & repair, I suppose the boat will wind up being sold for scrap. Some marine insurance policies will cover for design and/or latent defects, if applicable.
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Looks like major previous repairs were undertaken, including grinding and laminating the grid liner to the hull after a delamination due to grounding. However, the glass hull in way of the aft end of the keel/hull joint was saturated in diesel/oil/bilge water and the repairs failed.The front end of the engine is right next to the grid liner, and the engine bay actually drains through the liner into the keel sump. This arrangement, with oily water running right over/through the bond line of the most critical area of grid liner, is a great example of how real world conditions often confound how designers and engineers would like to think it might work in their clean offices. This damage appeared to be very well repaired, and has passed survey in it's current state twice at least. It was only picked up on by the diligent eye of long experienced lift operators and crew. When we put an experienced damage surveyor inside the boat on the ways in the lift slings and slowly lowered load onto keel blocks, the engine visibly moved forward over an inch to almost touch the liner. The surveyor was shocked. We also removed large glass repairs by prying with a chisel. I'll say no more on this one, as it's a current client. Suffice it to say I could go on and on about similar recent cases, and this one, but I don't like to discuss current client's account's. This one just struck me as quite pertinent to the discussion.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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28-05-2015, 05:03
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#1078
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Posts: 1,338
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret
Looks like major previous repairs were undertaken, including grinding and laminating the grid liner to the hull after a delamination due to grounding. However, the glass hull in way of the aft end of the keel/hull joint was saturated in diesel/oil/bilge water and the repairs failed.The front end of the engine is right next to the grid liner, and the engine bay actually drains through the liner into the keel sump. This arrangement, with oily water running right over/through the bond line of the most critical area of grid liner, is a great example of how real world conditions often confound how designers and engineers would like to think it might work in their clean offices. This damage appeared to be very well repaired, and has passed survey in it's current state twice at least. It was only picked up on by the diligent eye of long experienced lift operators and crew. When we put an experienced damage surveyor inside the boat on the ways in the lift slings and slowly lowered load onto keel blocks, the engine visibly moved forward over an inch to almost touch the liner. The surveyor was shocked. We also removed large glass repairs by prying with a chisel. I'll say no more on this one, as it's a current client. Suffice it to say I could go on and on about similar recent cases, and this one, but I don't like to discuss current client's account's. This one just struck me as quite pertinent to the discussion.
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So would you say this is a common fault? How would a buyer notice these issues prior to offer and survey? Are all grids the same, or are some better than others. Why are they still being allowed to build in this method being so inherently dangerous?
__________________
Simon
Bavaria 50 Cruiser
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28-08-2015, 07:21
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#1079
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj
Wouldn't that, by any definition, include all of them?
Mark
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If you are the type of person that routinely does things like use a 20 lb sledge hammer to swat at flies then yes. Why on earth would you burn unnecessary dough on the boat when you could plow it into other things?
Use the right tool for the job at hand.
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28-08-2015, 07:29
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#1080
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2012
Location: At sea somewhere in the Pacific
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 6,346
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdhbulseye
If you are the type of person that routinely does things like use a 20 lb sledge hammer to swat at flies then yes. Why on earth would you burn unnecessary dough on the boat when you could plow it into other things?
Use the right tool for the job at hand.
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Welcome aboard Jdhbulseye
__________________
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Our books have gotten 5 star reviews on Amazon. Several readers have written "I never thought I would go on a circumnavigation, but when I read these books, I was right there in the cockpit with Vinni and Carsten"
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