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Old 19-04-2015, 04:33   #1051
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
...you wreck your post in that final statment,, FEA, my arse Pol, regarding the low spectrum in production boats, you get what you pay for, some get better rudders some get junk , and Beneteau is not precisely the example, you cant settle the number of beneteaus with rudder problems looking at the net, not even in the beneteau fórums,,,, is in the boatyards where the pot is stirred.... just for example we split open 2 dufours rudders last month , one swollen and full of wáter , with a huge crack at the top edge, and the other with similar problems,,, both boats with just few years under their keels....

The picture at the top showing a bene 38 rudder stock framing show clear to me that bene start to rectify some bad practiques , definitely better than those horror old Oceanis series.....
I don't see how. On this thread, I don't know why, Beneteaus have been targeted by some has having, more than other brands, rudder problems and you seem to agree that rudder problems are not a particular problem from Beneteau since you are talking about two cases with Dufours that is a more expensive brand and with a better reputation than Beneteaus.

Anyway what you call "just a few years" is not probably what I call a few years for a boat so I ask you not only to refer the year of manufacture of those two Dufours as in the future to use that as a reference when you refer to a boat with problems.

When it was the last time those two Dufour rudders where dismounted for inspection?

The truth is that a spade rudder demands a regular maintenance, being carefully inspected each year and full dismounted and thoroughly inspected each 3 years or so. Very few do this and what is to wonder for me is that so few rudders have problems, given the inadequate maintenance most owners gave them.

Regarding the use of FEA and top engineering analyses on the design of big mass production boats, particularly rudders, you seem to assume that a better quality Naval Architecture and design engineering is not used on mass production boats. It is quite the contrary, those big brands that due to the huge number of production numbers of each model can dilute the costs of a superior technological design and they are the ones that can afford the best NA and engineering teams.

Of course this only means that the design of mass production boats is a top one not that they are not designed for a low budget.
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Old 19-04-2015, 04:56   #1052
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
is in the boatyards where the pot is stirred.
Actually the boatyards don't have a good picture of which boats are more prone to problems, and which aren't. You only see the boats that have problems, you don't see the ones that don't have problems.
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Old 19-04-2015, 05:04   #1053
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I don't see how. On this thread, I don't know why, Beneteaus have been targeted by some has having, more than other brands, rudder problems and you seem to agree that rudder problems are not a particular problem from Beneteau since you are talking about two cases with Dufours that is a more expensive brand and with a better reputation than Beneteaus.

.
Hello Pollux,

Perhaps because there are so many Bennie's floating around?Would be interesting if we had relative numbers available

btw nice blog!

Cheers,
JJ
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Old 19-04-2015, 06:08   #1054
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Actually the boatyards don't have a good picture of which boats are more prone to problems, and which aren't. You only see the boats that have problems, you don't see the ones that don't have problems.
So who else? I cannot fathom anyone else having any better picture. The "other" boats without problems show up for a new antifouling and other maintenance regularly..
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Old 19-04-2015, 06:20   #1055
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

ALL boats need maintenance
ALL boats get problems.

the REAL question is:
what kinda sailor can take XXX boat out into open water and not quit die or panic or ...
it takes a sailor to sail a sailboat.
how many production boats are bought by sailors who know how to fix em on the fly.
THAT is the question.
looky markj...he sailed a bendytoy rtw.
look at the kids who sail small boats.
ye could sail a pram rtw if you can tolerate the conditions

how much work fo you wish to do while sailing kinda detetmines the boat ye buy n actually sail without it scaring the pee right outta ye.
if you like big winds..look for something you enjoy sailing in same
if you like light winds...ditto.
so....is up to the sailor seeking a boat to find the boat that sailor LOVES sailing and adapt go that lifestyle required to sail and maintain that boat
i chose formosa because i LOVE them.
but i LOVE the look and wright and depth of kerl and slowness( ha ha ha) and solidity of a heavy deep keeled boat
especially in a GOOOOD blow......
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Old 19-04-2015, 07:13   #1056
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Spot on Zee.
You don't haul gravel in your Beamer do you? And you don't need a 10 ton truck to run to the store for a jug of milk. Sail your boat as it was engineered to be sailed.
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Old 19-04-2015, 07:17   #1057
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Spot on Zee.
You don't haul gravel in your Beamer do you? And you don't need a 10 ton truck to run to the store for a jug of milk. Sail your boat as it was engineered to be sailed.

Indeed, and with modern boats that mostly anywhere ordinary bluewater cruisers want to go

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Old 19-04-2015, 07:27   #1058
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Hello Pollux,

....
btw nice blog!

Cheers,
JJ
Thanks J
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Old 19-04-2015, 07:38   #1059
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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So who else? I cannot fathom anyone else having any better picture. The "other" boats without problems show up for a new antifouling and other maintenance regularly..
The problem with that logic is that if a brand had manufactured 50 boats there will be 1 boat for 600 Benes so to be fair regarding Beneteau, for each boat from a brand that has made 50 boats and that had a rudder problem there would have to be 600 Benes showing up up with rudder problems.

On a big shipyard if 30 Benes would have show up (along the time) with a rudder problem it will give the impression that Beneteaus have much more rudder problems than a luxury brand (with very few boats made) that only once had appeared with a rudder problem.
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Old 19-04-2015, 08:26   #1060
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

what the sailor feels comfortable sailing is the boat for what sailor. there is no law about what to sail where.
production boats are produced to keep down costs so middle income folks could go about the recreation that had been only for idle rich.
go where ye are comfortable sailing the boat.
if you are cpmfortable taking a new untried boat to sea..more power to ye.



i cannot say i wouldnt because i sail a lovely untried salvaged nonptoduction boat with no qualms. yeah there be problems. but then ALL boats have problems until you personalize em.
there are many debates on what should be taken to sea but few on WHO should take em to sea.

it AINT THE BOAT. it IS the sailor.
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Old 19-04-2015, 10:52   #1061
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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The problem with that logic is that if a brand had manufactured 50 boats there will be 1 boat for 600 Benes so to be fair regarding Beneteau, for each boat from a brand that has made 50 boats and that had a rudder problem there would have to be 600 Benes showing up up with rudder problems.

On a big shipyard if 30 Benes would have show up (along the time) with a rudder problem it will give the impression that Beneteaus have much more rudder problems than a luxury brand (with very few boats made) that only once had appeared with a rudder problem.
Wowwwww!!!!
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Old 19-04-2015, 11:59   #1062
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Wowwwww!!!!
The fact that never had occurred to you is not a reason to bang your head so hard
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Old 19-04-2015, 12:09   #1063
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Not gonna get into the blue water worthy spat but watching a boat with a spade rudder back up coming in to a slip does inspire a momentary spot of envy.


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Old 19-04-2015, 12:25   #1064
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The problem with that logic is that if a brand had manufactured 50 boats there will be 1 boat for 600 Benes so to be fair regarding Beneteau, for each boat from a brand that has made 50 boats and that had a rudder problem there would have to be 600 Benes showing up up with rudder problems.

On a big shipyard if 30 Benes would have show up (along the time) with a rudder problem it will give the impression that Beneteaus have much more rudder problems than a luxury brand (with very few boats made) that only once had appeared with a rudder problem.
The problem with your logic is that a brand with 50 manufactured boats has practically no statistical meaning of possible design flaw if some or any of them have had a rudder problem. With a big brand with hundreds of boats of their every specific design it becomes obvious when some of the models manufactured in certain years do.. That's a statistical fact and there's nothing you can do about it
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Old 19-04-2015, 14:33   #1065
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Not gonna get into the blue water worthy spat but watching a boat with a spade rudder back up coming in to a slip does inspire a momentary spot of envy.
You are going to drool with envy when you see a catamaran back up into a slip (no rudders even necessary)…

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