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Old 03-01-2015, 08:49   #91
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Come on, back with the straw man argument again. Please show me where anyone on this forum has ever said production boats are not suited for "blue water" or passage making. I've never seen it. As has been said in this thread and elsewhere ad nauseum, it's the crew not the boat. Hugo Vihlen went transat in a 6' boat long ago. The record is now 3' 11". People have crossed in kayaks and rowboats, and my friend Jordan makes regular long ocean passages in small rowboats. Any boat at all can do it, it's just a question of for how long, with how much maintenance, and with what sort of comfort factor. Not everybody is a Tom McNally.


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Yes of course I would not demand that the new productions are fit for water sailing">blue water sailing but I think it is up to the skipper to reduce risks and to choose the boat, crew and gear in a way to never ever get in trouble.

For example there are productions out there in the 40ft class that were refused beeing certified more than 200NM offshore (in Britain)

So safety is the first issue and to my belief an open cockpit to the aft is not safe enough. If they use this at Volvo Ocean Race or Class 60 this is a different point of view. Think we are cruisers and not racers.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:51   #92
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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So what is the debate if we all agree that any production boat can and do cross oceans???
For the love of Debate....isn't that Obvious.....
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:53   #93
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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For the love of Debate....isn't that Obvious.....



If one could call any of these threads Debate. More like a tornado in a teacup, IMHO.
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:55   #94
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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If one could call any of these threads Debate. More like a tornado in a teacup, IMHO.
Ha ha ha....well actually MentalMasterbation comes to mind....
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Old 03-01-2015, 08:58   #95
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Ha ha ha....well actually MentalMasterbation comes to mind....



Indeed. Some here must have quite hairy mental palms.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:03   #96
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The following post is from another thread titled: Re: ANOTHER Hunter Rudder! I noticed you (Smackdaddy) didn't comment on this new rudder/problem/ failure on the thread, so just in case you didn't see it..... looks like this fellow had similar issues with his rudder as I had with my 450 keel (similar vintage), where he liked the boat, but didn't find it to be fit for blue water use after discovering the issue.... here it is:
Attached Thumbnails








Keno, I do admire your anti-Hunter passion...but it's a little misguided. There is no doubt that there is an issue with the rudder in your pics. But there is also no doubt that another Hunter comfortably rode out an F10/11 in the Southern Ocean (click photo for story):



While an Oyster sunk in the same area (click photo for story):



What does this say about Oysters? Nothing really. And that's my point.

Posting pics of a problematic rudder doesn't really mean much in the larger context of this discussion.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:05   #97
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Julie my friend, this is the wine Smack drinks and why he set this thread up. You are wasting your time, he will out Google anyone.
The translation for this seems to be that I provide actual evidence for the points I make when others can't or won't.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:11   #98
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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under power, we motor at 7 to 8 knots, thats over 200 miles per day..
Must be something wrong with my calculator…

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Old 03-01-2015, 09:19   #99
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Randy I'm not sure that is being fair with this Lady. Yes if one sticks to the easy peasy trade wind belt then we all know the weather is quite predictable and the rough stuff can be avoided for the most part. But we also have seen keels fall of and boats break apart in the same ocean when traveling a bit north. If this couple decides to sail in areas where there are few cruisers then the weather patterns are no where near as predictable and the possibility of getting into force 8 weather enroute is very real.
.
Can you provide some examples of these keels falling off and boats breaking apart? I know of a couple production boats (out of thousands) such as Cheeki Rafiki and Blue Pearl that had catastrophic endings - but both of those also had questionable usage/maintenance/repair issues prior to the failures. I also know of other "bluewater brand" boats (Moodys, etc.) that had similar problems such as rudder failures/leaks/etc. - at sea and even in the ICW. Again, these things happen regardless of the brand.

So, I'm very interested in your additional examples.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:23   #100
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

scott, Donna, Nathan, and Celeste circumnavigated from 1988 to 1996 on Bluejay, a J-36, then a fast performance cruiser and today still a fast cruiser.


Regarding the choice of the best boat to cruise extensively, taking into consideration their vast experience they said:

"We have always believed in the phrase, “a fast passage is a safe passage”. We have always had borderline racing boats. A teak interior is beautiful but you are going to want to move without running an engine constantly, choose a boat that can sail. "
http://www.h2onotes.com/index2.asp?p...30F56658A582F9


They changed boat in 2009 and the choice show that their convictions remain, they had chose a recent and very fast Tripp 47 and the reasons had to do with the kids that are now grown ups and need more space and privacy to receive friends.
[/COLOR]



You can follow them here:

Sailing with Celestial's Tripp
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:30   #101
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Let me help you get the pump primed Smack.

Catalina 27's have sailed around the world, Cal 25's have sailed around the world, Contessa 26's have sailed around the world, Lapworth 24's have sailed around the world, Moore 24 is on its way. Some Russian guy even sailed a bath tub across an ocean. Now a days people row open boats across oceans.
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If a sailor can cross an ocean sailing an inflatable 4.5 Meter boat, if you can sail a little Contessa 32 against the wind and currents around the great capes, if a Vega 27 can cross oceans and a 21 foot plywood ketch can circumnavigate via the great capes as well what stops you from jumping into your Hunter 28 and heading offshore.
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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Hugo Vihlen went transat in a 6' boat long ago. The record is now 3' 11". People have crossed in kayaks and rowboats, and my friend Jordan makes regular long ocean passages in small rowboats. Any boat at all can do it, it's just a question of for how long, with how much maintenance, and with what sort of comfort factor. Not everybody is a Tom McNally.

Can you guys please explain the point you're trying to make above? If I recall, both of you have big, heavy, traditionally "bluewater" boats - yet you're both advocating that sailors can go around the world in vessels that are completely the opposite of what you yourselves own?

Hmmm. That's very strange.

For the record, though I obviously believe, as I said in the beginning, that any of the leading Cat A production boats can safely and comfortably take you virtually anywhere you want to go in the world - I don't adhere to the above posters' advice that doing so in bathtubs makes any sense whatsoever. I would caution readers against this kind of advice. It's dangerous.
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:30   #102
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I am having trouble understanding this thread - there is a long history of thousands of "inexpensive" or "unworthy" production boats making long and difficult blue water passages. Why is there any debate about their ability to safely cross oceans. They have been doing just that for a very long time and they will continue to do so.

Here is a list of some of the Production boats that appear in the Puddle Jump (Western Mexico to South Pacific) Roster during the last two years. There are many Production boats in this list that are over 25-years old. None of the boats listed here sunk or disappeared so I guess they are “Blue Water” capable!

Catalina 34 MkII
Ericson 38 (2)
Pearson 36
Suncoast 42
Jeanneau i39
Fuji 40
US Yacht 42
J/120
Contest 33
Taswell 44
Islander 36 (3)
Freedom 42
Catalina 470
J/130
Pearson 365
Junneau 42 (2)
Jenneau 45
Morgan 41.5
Hanse 531
Hylas 46 (2)
Westsail 43
Jenneau 53
Catalina 42
Hylas 46
Dufor 32
Hunter 45
Beneteau 43
Bavaria 38
Morgan 46
Beneteau 423
Columbia 34 MkII
Tartan 41
Beneteau 50 (2)
Hunter 50
Dufour 51
Bavaria 42
Morgan 321
Beneteau 445
Jenneau 47
Westsail 32 (4)
Beneteay 40.7
Cheoy Lee 47
Jenneau 39
Morgan 46
Bavaria 49
Beneteau 44.7
CSY 44
Jeanneau 37
Irwin 54
Hunter 386
Jeanneau 42
Cape Dory 40
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:32   #103
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Can you provide some examples of these keels falling off and boats breaking apart? I know of a couple production boats (out of thousands) such as Cheeki Rafiki and Blue Pearl that had catastrophic endings - but both of those also had questionable usage/maintenance/repair issues prior to the failures. I also know of other "bluewater brand" boats (Moodys, etc.) that had similar problems such as rudder failures/leaks/etc. - at sea and even in the ICW. Again, these things happen regardless of the brand.

So, I'm very interested in your additional examples.
I'd say if you don't have a keel that can fall of - your on a safer side, aren't you?
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:33   #104
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Okay - now that we've gotten through the chaff, Polux is delivering PRECISELY what this thread is about.

FACTS.

These are all production boats safely and happily cruising in very, very blue water. And this seems to be an uncomfortable surprise to many people out there.

So, what are you going to believe? Facts? Or forum bluster?
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:37   #105
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I'd say if you don't have a keel that can fall of - your on a safer side, aren't you?
Sure. No argument there at all.

But if what you're implying is that one should therefore choose a full-keeler to ward off such potential danger - I'll definitely take my chances.

Remember, a Moody just washed up on a beach after being abandoned after having its rudder/skeg torn away by something in a collision. And another was abandoned after experiencing steering issues and taking on water. And you saw the sinking Oyster above.

These things happen - to all kinds of boats. So what's the take-away?
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