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Old 27-01-2015, 18:05   #1006
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, I am also interested to see how it works. I'll report after I see this summer.

In fairness, urban effluents are treated before discharge. And the Baltic is tideless, so much more vulnerable to pollution. So I have a certain amount of sympathy for their position. But surely a mile or two would be enough for small vessels.

The Swedes don't have the blue card system, so no way to track how much waste you pump out. That would leave boarding and dye tablets as the only possible means of enforcement, the thuggish methods used by the US Coast Guard. I hope they won't go that far -- we shall see. I rather doubt it -- that's not the Scandinavian style. People are very law abiding, and the authorities tend to trust people more.
Are you thinking of the USCG or perhaps the Florida Fish and Wildlife? They are the ones known to do the dye tests, and as far as I am aware, that is a Florida law, not a federal US one.

I'll find out later this or next week. Their patrol boat is berthed three slips over from me at the new marina I'm at and I've asked them to do a courtesy check on my boat next time we see each other, at the dock. I'll ask the specific question.

I figure it is better to be proactive than go finding out I transgressed some minor but fineable offence out in their patrol area.





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Old 27-01-2015, 23:58   #1007
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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By the way do you know about the new laws on the Baltic regarding prohibition of discharges of black water? Do they have enough pumping stations to make that viable?

.
In Denmark, every harbour is required to have a method of pumping out you black water tank. This doesn't mean that have to have a dedicated ċpumping station - if they want ot fulfill the law by calling a sewage truck to pump out your boat then this is ok (legally). The law requires every harbour to have a system of some kind in place. It is also free of charge to the boater - the harbour must bear the expense. You may also dump you tank if you are more than (I believe) 12nm from land.

Swedens new law takes effect this year and is considered tough. You must have your tank pumped (but as of writing this I don't know the status of how many pumping stations there are.) The swedish coast guard can, and does, stop and check leisure boat frequently. It has been said that this is a priority item for them. You can also bet that they will check to see if you have receipts. If you been in swedish waters for several days and doon't have a pump out receipt - you'll have a difficult time convincing them you have just opened your thru-hull at sea.
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Old 28-01-2015, 02:49   #1008
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I don't think so and probably it is the reason that neither Portugal, Spain or Greece recognize the ICC as a valid licence even if they prefer not to raise problems.
So in other words, I should no come to Portugal with my boat then?

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Do you think that if a country would not demand a car driving licence citizens of that country would be free to drive cars in UK without licence?
I think for a while that was indeed the case. My father certainly did drive his car outside of Belgium before driving licences were introduced there.
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Old 28-01-2015, 03:30   #1009
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Are you thinking of the USCG or perhaps the Florida Fish and Wildlife? They are the ones known to do the dye tests, and as far as I am aware, that is a Florida law, not a federal US one.

I'll find out later this or next week. Their patrol boat is berthed three slips over from me at the new marina I'm at and I've asked them to do a courtesy check on my boat next time we see each other, at the dock. I'll ask the specific question.

I figure it is better to be proactive than go finding out I transgressed some minor but fineable offence out in their patrol area.





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I have been boarded by both the USCG and Fish & Wildlife, but remember this is going back 30 years, and my last Florida cruise is going on two years ago.

The courtesy check is a good idea -- it used to be that the Coast Guard Auxiliary did it and you got a sticker which reduced the chances of boarding. The CGA are enthusiastic amateurs -- my father was one for decades -- and far friendlier than the real Coasties, who especially after 9/11 can be really thuggish. No matter how polite and cooperative you are, a USCG boarding is often an unpleasant experience.

I feel much freer over here, especially in UK waters, where no one is ever boarded (I've never even heard of anyone being boarded in UK waters) and the Coast Guard regards you solely as someone to help out in every way possible.

Carsten says the Swedish coast guard frequently board yachts -- I never had that experience, although I was in Swedish waters more than a month. I guess I'd better bone up on what they might be interested in. I've been boarded by the Dutch, the Germans (2x), and the French, and all they were ever interested in were documents, and all were exceedingly friendly, very different from the USCG. I've never been boarded anywhere in the Med.

I hope the Swedes don't recreate our awful "toilet police" tactics.
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Old 28-01-2015, 07:40   #1010
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Most continental countries maintain registries of citizens administered by the police. See: Resident registration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interestingly, France and Portugal do not seem to have any residence registration.

But all the continental countries I have lived in require registration with the police, both foreigners and locals. In Russia and Italy, a policeman actually visits your home as part of the registration process -- to check that what you put in your application is actually true.

In Germany (and other German-speaking countries), compulsory registration with the police goes back centuries -- it's an ancient institution.

In many countries, there is a special office which maintains these registries (e.g. German "Meldeamt"), usually subordinated to the police directly or to the ministry of the interior (which is the overarching central police institution in most European countries).

When I was a young student in Germany and first went to the Meldeamt to register my residence, I found it a surrealist and even terrifying experience. Waited in line for hours, to be seen by a suspicious police bureaucrat sitting behind a huge ledger set upon a tiny, high desk, who would calmly sit and write something endlessly, and only once in a 15 minutes or so would look up haughtily and invite the next person in line to give his data. "Der Naechste!" It was like something out of a novel by Franz Kafka. The kicker is that when you leave, you have to stand in the same line and go through the whole process again in order to abmelden -- unregister -- and get yet another Schein -- certificate, a large collection of which I still keep as souvenirs from my years living in Germany.


Germany is just like Russia, with this obsession for little pieces of paper as instruments of social control -- the Russians say, pithily (as they do): "Bez bumazhki, ty kakashka -- a s bumazhkoi, chelovek" ("Without a document, you're a little piece of sh*t, oh, but with a document -- a person"). The same attitude -- the drive to regulate and control -- informs this desire to make us all carry sailing licenses, registration certificates, all this other carp. We should resist it. Join the RYA!

You must have been studying in Germany before the world war, but I can not figure which one


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Old 28-01-2015, 08:22   #1011
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

We were boarded by USCG on a way from St. Pete to KW. Not very friendly but professional and polite. Prior to boarding we were hailed a few times from the mother ship re: our nav lights not being on as this was dusk and we were eating dinner in the cockpit and did not hear VHF down below and the one in the cockpit was inadvertently turned off by a crewmember. Anyway, upon checking everyone's documents and seeing a bunch of well mannered adults and the boat being otherwise in good shape, with all the reqs in place, they let us go with a written warning but no fine.
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Old 28-01-2015, 09:48   #1012
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Bernd Mansholt circumnavigated with the family with an old slow steel boat:

Some years later, he wanted to go out again but not the family. He bought a modern, faster Beneteau Oceanis 373 (2006), circumnavigated England to see if the boat was OK (it was) and with two guys (father and son) that never had sailed went for a fantastic voyage on the Arctic.
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He says about the boat and voyage:

"During the trip I experienced six storms, two of them with wind force 10. In a storm of Greenland I lost my anchor in a small bay, including chain.... The damage to the ship were limited: a railing lining was torn down in a storm and the electric windlass was - also in the storm - damaged."

Note: I will not be contributing to this thread for a while. I will have a surgery tomorrow and even if all goes well it will take some time to recover, so... I hope to be back in a week or so.
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Old 28-01-2015, 09:50   #1013
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You must have been studying in Germany before the world war, but I can not figure which one

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I'm sure they use computers now!

But this was in the 80's!
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Old 28-01-2015, 09:52   #1014
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Note: I will not be contributing to this thread for a while. I will have a surgery tomorrow and even if all goes well it will take some time to recover, so... I hope to be back in a week or so.
good luck with the surgery, Polux!
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Old 28-01-2015, 10:01   #1015
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Good luck with the surgery, Polux, and thanks for the interesting postings.
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Old 28-01-2015, 10:15   #1016
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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In Denmark, every harbour is required to have a method of pumping out you black water tank. This doesn't mean that have to have a dedicated ċpumping station - if they want ot fulfill the law by calling a sewage truck to pump out your boat then this is ok (legally). The law requires every harbour to have a system of some kind in place. It is also free of charge to the boater - the harbour must bear the expense. You may also dump you tank if you are more than (I believe) 12nm from land.

Swedens new law takes effect this year and is considered tough. You must have your tank pumped (but as of writing this I don't know the status of how many pumping stations there are.) The swedish coast guard can, and does, stop and check leisure boat frequently. It has been said that this is a priority item for them. You can also bet that they will check to see if you have receipts. If you been in swedish waters for several days and doon't have a pump out receipt - you'll have a difficult time convincing them you have just opened your thru-hull at sea.
That's very nice I mean, to be free of charge. When you say every port do you mean marina or really any small town port?

In Turkey they have only pumping outfits on major luxury Marinas. I don't believe it will be for free but even if it is you have to pay the marina and that will be around 50 to 70 Euros. If you have to do that each three days not only your cruising options become limited as it will become real expensive for someone that sails several months there.

I remember about 15 years ago when it started to be standard practice to have black water tanks on the boats and it seems that with the increasing demanding ecological laws it makes sense to have them bigger now, to give the boats a bigger autonomy.

But there are some big contrasts in what regards this, for instance in Turkey they have all that talk but they don't demand the yachts that enter Turkish waters to have black water tanks and I see some old ones sailing there that I am pretty sure don't have them. Not to mention that very few boats go to the marinas for pumping and the control is pretty much nonexistent even if they have the means to do that (blue card).

Worse then that, I charted some few years ago a brand new Salona 41 on Croatia and they had the black water tank system blocked. They said that it was standard practice among charters and that if they had it working all system would be rendered useless by improper use in no time. I demanded them to make it functional....it took a while and some persuasion from my part (I was chartering the boat for 2 weeks) ....but I was under the impression that most charter boats don't use their black water tanks, at least in Croatia.

Thanks to all by caring about my problems. Fact is that I have more problems then my boat
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Old 28-01-2015, 10:33   #1017
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Hope all goes well in surgery my friend, look forward to your return. R
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Old 28-01-2015, 20:48   #1018
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Good luck with the surgery Polux.
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Old 28-01-2015, 21:26   #1019
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Thanks smackdaddy for the thread. I have a Bavaria 41 and my wife and I are doing 18 months preparation for an extended cruise, including assessing, upgrading our boat as necessary. I found Beth Leonards book The Voyager's Handbook: The Essential Guide to Bluewater Cruising (The Voyager's Handbook: The Essential Guide to Bluewater Cruising: Amazon.co.uk: Beth A. Leonard: 9780713684773: Books.) very helpful to date and look forward to following your post.
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Old 28-01-2015, 22:43   #1020
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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That's very nice I mean, to be free of charge. When you say every port do you mean marina or really any small town port?
any marina, any harbour that takes leisure boats must the facility to pump out your black water tank. This includes very ssmall harbours on small islands. Sometimes they have to get a sewage truck over on the ferry just ot pump you out. And it must be done free of charge

good luck with the surgery
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