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Old 27-01-2015, 14:41   #991
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes I agree, as in most countries including Spain, Us Coast guard, Rya Master certification are recognized as valid licences.



ICC is tolerated but not legally accepted in Spain. As it was said already Spain, Portugal, Greece, USA and some other countries do have not signed that agreement and that licence is not legally valid. There is a difference in having a legally valid licence and one that even if not valid the authorities of those countries chose not to create problems to the ones that only have them. If they decide otherwise in any given moment they are in their right.

I think you are confusing sone issues with the ICC . Firstly the ICC does not entitle any holder to actually skipper anything.. A countries acceptance of resolution 40 , merely says that it accepts an ICC is an indication that the holder has passed an examination as laid out in the annex of the resolution.. It does not actually state that any state has to accept such certificate as proof of competency of anything.

There is no such thing as legally valid ICC. Legally valid as opposed to illegal invalid, as I said it means it confirms that the holder has passed some exams. Accepting resolution 40 means the signatory state accepts that fact , not signing it means the state is not obliged to accept that fact. , but there is nothing to stop the state accepting the document as valid anyway.

Spain will accept ICCs as valid only if they are in effect required in the home country. Otherwise it will require the home country documentation. The question of legal validity does not arise since Spain is exercising comity on foreign yachts.

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Old 27-01-2015, 14:43   #992
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Actually Polux is right; sort of.



It is a popular myth that coastal states cannot regulate foreign vessels -- they certainly can, even if the foreign vessel is engaged in innocent passage. See Article 21 of UNCLOS.



On innocent passage, as opposed to being cleared in, the coastal state can't regulate "the design, construction, manning or equipment of foreign ships unless they are giving effect to generally accepted international rules or standards", which means that a coastal state could not insist on some peculiar local license of the skipper of a foreign vessel on innocent passage. Whether or not the ICC is a "generally accepted . . . rule or standard"; probably not, but could be.



And once you clear in, you are subject to any rule the coastal state wants to impose, including licensing, and also safety. It's a different question whether the coastal state actually does require something different from the flag state. Most coastal states do not attempt to burden foreign vessels except in specific cases like environmental regulations -- it would be hard for a globe-trotting vessel to comply with all kinds of different rules, and it would be bad for business for the coastal state that made unusual demands. But that doesn't mean they can't, if they want to.



So if Spain demands that the skipper has a license of some kind, then if you plan to clear into Spain, you'd better have it. And that's what the RYA advise, too: Evidence of Competence Abroad | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA

Actually Dockhead . Few yachts could in reality claim innocent passage as it's defined., meandering along a countries coasts actually removes such protection.


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Old 27-01-2015, 14:56   #993
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You are confusing two things, the safety equipment a foreign registered boat carries (and you are right about that) with the licence a skipper has to have (or not) to sail the territorial waters of another country. There is not any agreement regarding that in the EC, like for instance in what regards the car driving licence, so each country can demand what they want. ICC is accepted in the countries that have signed that protocol, that are most of European but Portugal, Spain Greece and also (out of Europe) USA didn't, so those licences are not legally valid on those countries.

Do you think that if a country would not demand a car driving licence citizens of that country would be free to drive cars in UK without licence? Off course not. The only car licences that allow a foreign driver to drive on UK are those that are accepted by International treaties subscribed by UK. The same happens with boat licences in territorial waters of any country.

This is not correct , for leisure vessels certainly, it is sort of correct for commercial mariners licenses which are recognised by IMO treaty

Leisure licenses are not in general regulated by international treaty .

The uk does not for example have treaties about recognition of car driving licenses, nor do most countries. They have typically a law in their domestic statute, that allows foreign drivers a certain period Using their own national licenses , or they may for example recognise the international drivers license.

In the same way unless specifically proscribed by law , countries like Spain and Portugal will exercise comity in regards the qualifications of foreign yachtsmens , in that regard , and I have asked this in both countries, neither country REQUIRES. Foreign yachtsmens to have any competency other then what their home country allows. , sometimes port officials are confused about this, especially where they deal with commercial licenses. Also some are perplexed that countries like Ireland or the UK have no legal certification of any kind. ( in fact it's impossible for any such yachtsman to produce a legally valid certification )

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Old 27-01-2015, 15:01   #994
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I didn't see this when I wrote my post -- this is exactly right and better expressed than my post was
Well, I don't think so:

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
...
HOWEVER, in general peaceful countries apply the law of comity, to such situations, i.e. they do not criminalise ( in general ) issues that in your own country are not illegal. the application of such " largesse " has limits of course.

Hence Spain or Portugal will recognise ( often in law) that foreigners on board there own vessels will be exempt from local laws . This is true only up to a point.

Hence in Poluxs case, a Spainish judge would typically apply the test case of seeing if the foreigner on his own boat was in compliance with his own domestic laws, and if that was so, He would adjudicate according. He would not give the Spainish skipper any advantage in that regard.
....
The Judge on a conflict case will apply the law and Portuguese laws in what regards this are probably very similar to the Spanish one so I believe it would be about the same. What the Portuguese law says regarding foreign recreational boats and licences is this (translated):

Article 28
Command of recreational crafts

1 - Recreational crafts may only sail under the command of a holder of a nautical licence for recreational crafts.
........
Article 34
Recognition of foreign licences

1 - The nautical licences for recreational crafts or equivalent documents issued by the administrations of states the European Union are automatically recognized in Portugal in terms and for the purposes of this Regulation.
2 - The nautical licences for recreational crafts or equivalent documents issued by the authorities of third countries can be recognized by IPTM if the they fulfill analogous scope to those required by this Regulation.

REGULAMENTO DA N┴UTICA DE RECREIO Decrteto

For skippering a recreational craft on territorial Portuguese waters a licence is mandatory by law. The ICC is not provided by the British administration since it is not an official licence and most of all the ICC is not equivalent to the licence needed to coastal skipper a sailboat in Portugal or Spain. That would be the RYA coastal skipper or offshore licence, that I have no doubt with be accepted as equivalent. Besides as it was already said Portugal and Spain does not recognize ICC as a licence.

Regarding licences to sail a boat on the territorial waters of other country, what you need or not in your own country is irrelevant. You have to comply with the laws of the country you are sailing in. No problem if your licence has an equivalence to the one of the country you are sailing in, if not, you are illegally skippering a boat and a judge will consider it that way in case of a conflict.

Now, I cannot care less about all that. I am just posting this because the information can eventually be useful and a RYA coastal licence is not that hard to get and can give an additional warranty in case of trouble.
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Old 27-01-2015, 15:19   #995
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Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Well, I don't think so:



The Judge on a conflict case will apply the law and Portuguese laws in what regards this are probably very similar to the Spanish one so I believe it would be about the same. What the Portuguese law says regarding foreign recreational boats and licences is this (translated):

Article 28
Command of recreational crafts

1 - Recreational crafts may only sail under the command of a holder of a nautical licence for recreational crafts.
........
Article 34
Recognition of foreign licences

1 - The nautical licences for recreational crafts or equivalent documents issued by the administrations of states the European Union are automatically recognized in Portugal in terms and for the purposes of this Regulation.
2 - The nautical licences for recreational crafts or equivalent documents issued by the authorities of third countries can be recognized by IPTM if the they fulfill analogous scope to those required by this Regulation.

REGULAMENTO DA N┴UTICA DE RECREIO Decrteto

For skippering a recreational craft on territorial Portuguese waters a licence is mandatory by law. The ICC is not provided by the British administration since it is not an official licence and most of all the ICC is not equivalent to the licence needed to coastal skipper a sailboat in Portugal or Spain. That would be the RYA coastal skipper or offshore licence, that I have no doubt with be accepted as equivalent. Besides has it was already said Portugal and Spain does not recognize ICC as a licence.

Regarding licences to sail a boat on the territorial waters of other country, what you need or not in your own country is irrelevant. You have to comply with the laws of the country you are sailing in. No problem if your licence has an equivalence to the one of the country you are sailing in, if not, you are illegally skippering a boat and a judge will consider it that way in case of a conflict.

Now, I cannot care less about all that. I am just posting this because the information can eventually be useful and a RYA coastal licence is not that hard to get and can give an additional warranty in case of trouble.

You are still confused. No British authority can issue any license to a pleasure skipper ( and none do,) , because no such document exists . Hence the Portuguese law would have to defer to the principles of comity and accept that a uk yachts person could not produce ANY license. Whatsoever. You understand that comity generally overrides national law and is the practice of friendly states not seeking to criminalise each other's citizens. ( for example a country that bans euthanasia, will not not arrest a person that has carried one out in a country that does allow assisted termination) . Hence under normal circumstances, a UK yachtsman sailing in Portuguese waters without any license , while contrary to Portuguese law, would have such principle applied and would , outside a state of war, would be " excused" from such legislation being applied to him

Furthermore I fail to see where RYA costal skipper ( which requires an exam and isn't that easy to get ) would make the holder any more legal then an ICC. neither are official in the UK and neither are recognised per se in Portugal.

In the case of conflict and court cases, typically. Throughout Europe the more advanced licenses you hold, the more accountable you may be held. Actually having significant licenses can be as much a drawback as an advantage

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Old 27-01-2015, 15:50   #996
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
By the way do you know about the new laws on the Baltic regarding prohibition of discharges of black water? Do they have enough pumping stations to make that viable?
What I have heard is that Sweden will, from this year, enforce no discharge from yachts within 12 miles, instead of 500 meters as previously. I have also heard that they are installing vast quantities of pump out stations.

It's a matter of some concern to me since I'm headed that way again on 1 May, but I have a large holding tank, so if there are pump out stations, it shouldn't be too bad.

Otherwise, I don't know about any new laws. HELCOM was in 1992, IIRC.

When I was there last summer, harbors in Finland, where discharge closer than 12 miles to shore has been prohibited for a long time, were very well equipped with pump out stations. There were even floating autonomous pump out stations in some wild places -- something I've never seen before. On the other hand, Finland is so wild that you could easily cruise for weeks without ever going near a port. In such places, local sailors pump out their holding tanks discreetly when a decent distance offshore, although that's not officially allowed. There does not seem to be any "toilet police" with dye tablets, like in the U.S. It will be interesting to see how the Swedes are going to approach enforcement.
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Old 27-01-2015, 15:54   #997
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

On topic, a performance cat that circumnavigated for 7 years, a Catana 44.

The crew was constituted basically by only one, Richard and he took additional crew on the several legs of the voyage.
About Me
Richard says about the boat:

"Performance:
Catamarans are meant for sailing downwind. We have taken Mystic
Rhythms both downwind and upwind and found the ride comfortable even
in some seas. Its a relatively fast boat, we are hoping for an average of 8 knots. "




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Old 27-01-2015, 16:21   #998
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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On topic again and with another Gib'sea 11.6 that circumnavigated, this one with 3 police from Norway, one of them a women. Great images on the facebook and their site:
Welcome to S/Y Blaatur!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jordo...01505393223074










Polux, These are old boats build the old way, stout and tough even if they are production boats. They shouldn't be compared with the new ones as they are not built the same However if you are posting them to show that many cruisers are choosing older boats to make long trips offshore well good for you. Boats built during this time were mostly good solid boats. Seeing them making these trips in boats 20 plus years old is a solid testament to their construction.
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Old 27-01-2015, 16:24   #999
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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What I have heard is that Sweden will, from this year, enforce no discharge from yachts within 12 miles, instead of 500 meters as previously. I have also heard that they are installing vast quantities of pump out stations.

It's a matter of some concern to me since I'm headed that way again on 1 May, but I have a large holding tank, so if there are pump out stations, it shouldn't be too bad.
...
Yes, that is what I am talking about:

"Discharge of sewage from pleasure crafts will be prohibited 2015 in Sweden In April 2015 regulations against discharge of sewage from pleasure crafts in Sweden will come into force. The regulation applies to all pleasure crafts, regardless of flag, throughout Sweden's territorial waters."

https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/en/Shipping/

They don't talk bout distances and I guess the 12nm you talk about are the limit of territorial waters. That is a lot for someone sailing coastal and it seems to me vastly exaggerated.

The Turks have something similar (legislation) regarding the more Touristic areas, have an electronic card to control discharges in pumping stations....but in the end it seems that nobody cares about that.

But Swedish are not Turks and they take very seriously their laws. I am very curious to see what is going to happen face to a law that seems not to make much sense (do they discharge urban effluents at 12NM from the coast?).
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Old 27-01-2015, 16:31   #1000
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Polux, These are old boats build the old way, stout and tough even if they are production boats. They shouldn't be compared with the new ones as they are not built the same However if you are posting them to show that many cruisers are choosing older boats to make long trips offshore well good for you. Boats built during this time were mostly good solid boats. Seeing them making these trips in boats 20 plus years old is a solid testament to their construction.
This is a light fast boat. The reason more modern mass production boats are less used have only to do with the bigger costs they have, not with being more fragile. Anyway I have posted about lots of them. On the World ARC, that is more expensive, many almost new sailing boats are used without problems.
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Old 27-01-2015, 16:38   #1001
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Actually Dockhead . Few yachts could in reality claim innocent passage as it's defined., meandering along a countries coasts actually removes such protection.
Well, I agree that it would not be the usual case, but not at all unheard of.

But I as mentioning the case as an extreme -- the coastal state exercising jurisdiction even on vessels on innocent passage.

To rebut the old myth that only the flag state's rules apply.

And that is also hypothetical, since most states accept the flag state's rules on most things, as a matter of comity. But they can certainly demand qualifications of the skipper, even if this is not required in the flag state; cf RYA article here: Evidence of Competence Abroad | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA
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Old 27-01-2015, 16:44   #1002
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Well, I agree that it would not be the usual case, but not at all unheard of.



But I as mentioning the case as an extreme -- the coastal state exercising jurisdiction even on vessels on innocent passage.



To rebut the old myth that only the flag state's rules apply.



And that is also hypothetical, since most states accept the flag state's rules on most things, as a matter of comity. But they can certainly demand qualifications of the skipper, even if this is not required in the flag state; cf RYA article here: Evidence of Competence Abroad | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA

Oh I agree comity isn't all encompassing , Croatia is a classic case where local rules apply to any flag , irrespective of the position in the flag states country. But the law in Croatia is very specific and directed.

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Old 27-01-2015, 16:45   #1003
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes, that is what I am talking about:

"Discharge of sewage from pleasure crafts will be prohibited 2015 in Sweden In April 2015 regulations against discharge of sewage from pleasure crafts in Sweden will come into force. The regulation applies to all pleasure crafts, regardless of flag, throughout Sweden's territorial waters."

https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/en/Shipping/

They don't talk bout distances and I guess the 12nm you talk about are the limit of territorial waters. That is a lot for someone sailing coastal and it seems to me vastly exaggerated.

The Turks have something similar (legislation) regarding the more Touristic areas, have an electronic card to control discharges in pumping stations....but in the end it seems that nobody cares about that.

But Swedish are not Turks and they take very seriously their laws. I am very curious to see what is going to happen face to a law that seems not to make much sense (do they discharge urban effluents at 12NM from the coast?).
Yes, I am also interested to see how it works. I'll report after I see this summer.

In fairness, urban effluents are treated before discharge. And the Baltic is tideless, so much more vulnerable to pollution. So I have a certain amount of sympathy for their position. But surely a mile or two would be enough for small vessels.

The Swedes don't have the blue card system, so no way to track how much waste you pump out. That would leave boarding and dye tablets as the only possible means of enforcement, the thuggish methods used by the US Coast Guard. I hope they won't go that far -- we shall see. I rather doubt it -- that's not the Scandinavian style. People are very law abiding, and the authorities tend to trust people more.
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Old 27-01-2015, 16:46   #1004
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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....

Furthermore I fail to see where RYA costal skipper ( which requires an exam and isn't that easy to get ) would make the holder any more legal then an ICC. neither are official in the UK and neither are recognised per se in Portugal.
...
The Portuguese law demand that a licence to be accepted as equivalent has to be similar in competence to the Portuguese ones. The RYA coastal Skipper is about the same in what regards competences as the Portuguese one demanded for coastal skipper a sailboat.
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Old 27-01-2015, 17:02   #1005
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Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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The Portuguese law demand that a licence to be accepted as equivalent has to be similar in competence to the Portuguese ones. The RYA coastal Skipper is about the same in what regards competences as the Portuguese one demanded for coastal skipper a sailboat.

I would not agree with your comments here. The Portuguese certificates are clearly licenses., ie they carry the permission to operate a boat. The UK documents have no legal standing in the UK and in fact are very clearly NOT Licenses. ( whereas the uk DoT commercial,Yachtmaster IS clearly a license )

I would suspect no UK skipper would actually ever fall foul of the Portuguese law once on their own boat.

Furthermore the Portuguese regulations are clear, they refer EU boats as second parties by inference and outside the EU as " third parties" . Hence they accept any uk license as valid. , ( if you accept that any uk paperwork is a license )

I cannot see any grounds or requirements that a EU , including a UK one would have to produce anything other then any form of domestically acceptable paperwork.. In the uk cases that's officially zero, or if you extend it to bits of paper you term a "license" ANY valid RYA ticket from ICC through day skipper to everything else. Sure my local yacht club could print up something fancy and the Portuguese couldnt really argue.

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