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Old 27-01-2015, 08:47   #976
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I believe you did not understand what I wanted to say with this:



Maybe I was not clear enough or the insure claim is a misappropriated term but I was nor referring to a direct claim to your insurance company but a situation when the insurances companies, your's and for instance, the one of a Spanish boat involved (let's suppose) on an accident in spain.

Then the situation will go to a competent court, a Spanish one (assuming Spanish territorial waters) and in this case, Having you only the ICC (let's suppose) the Spanish insurance company certainly will refer to the Spanish judge that you don't have a required valid licence to sail your boat on Spanish waters. That may or may not have influence on the judgment but I would say that will have.

The situation will not be different regarding a traffic car accident in UK that reach the court between the insurance companies of a British citizen holding a valid driving licence and a foreigner with no driving licence or one not accepted as valid on the UK. It can have no influence on the judge decision but I doubt very much about that.

It was just what I wanted to point out.
And I would say that you would be incorrect.

LEGALLY............the situation is:

You must carry on board your registration certificate (SSR or 'Part 1' for UK boats) your passports, a copy of your insurance documentation and a VHF operators licence. These rules apply to all EU countries for a EU registered boat with EU owner/skipper.

No foreign country can dictate what qualifications or safety equipment a yacht or skipper in their waters must conform to except it should conform to the rules of the country in which the boat is registered. (The UK does not require any qualification to 'drive' a boat so you do not need to carry one.) You may choose to, because not all Spanish Customs/Guardia Civil know that is the UK law! To have a ICC or Yachtmaster is useful.

And thats about it ........ a Spanish judge will have to defer to this protocol.
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Old 27-01-2015, 09:40   #977
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
No foreign country can dictate what qualifications or safety equipment a yacht or skipper in their waters must conform to except it should conform to the rules of the country in which the boat is registered. (The UK does not require any qualification to 'drive' a boat so you do not need to carry one.) You may choose to, because not all Spanish Customs/Guardia Civil know that is the UK law! To have a ICC or Yachtmaster is useful.

Both of you are wrong here.


When you sail in national waters, you are in effect , within the boundaries of that countries borders, exactly as if you had walked across their border.

All laws that apply to that national territory , apply to you, the flag state of your boat does NOT convey diplomatic privilege.

HOWEVER, in general peaceful countries apply the law of comity, to such situations, i.e. they do not criminalise ( in general ) issues that in your own country are not illegal. the application of such " largesse " has limits of course.

Hence Spain or Portugal will recognise ( often in law) that foreigners on board there own vessels will be exempt from local laws . This is true only upto a point.

Hence in Poluxs case, a Spainish judge would typically apply the test case of seeing if the foreigner on his own boat was in compliance with his own domestic laws, and if that was so, He would adjudicate according. He would not give the Spainish skipper any advantage in that regard.

As as aside Spain and Portugal and others have not recognised Article 40 of the UNECE, simply because to formally do so would allow their own citizens to use it instead. Its not because they don't like the ICC, merely they don't want to undermine their own.

( For example Ireland was late signing, because it does not require any certification, and was worried that it might force certification on its sailors , what a cuddly country !!)

To back up my point at the top . Irelands mandatory lifejacket legislation, applies to ALL leisure boats in its territorial waters. You gain no respite claiming foreign registration or being from another country, i.e. in this case Ireland does not recognise comity. (mind you at most you'll get a ticking off)

IN france , as was explained to me repeatedly the French code of safety equipment also applies to all boats within its territorial waters, even if the French authorities are generally less rigorous about apply to foreigners ( I have however been pulled up on the flares, they are hot on that )

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Old 27-01-2015, 09:44   #978
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
You must carry on board your registration certificate (SSR or 'Part 1' for UK boats) your passports, a copy of your insurance documentation and a VHF operators licence. These rules apply to all EU countries for a EU registered boat with EU owner/skipper.

Legally , you are required to carry whoever your home country requires, however of course that may not satisfy the country whose waters you are in .

If you sail a british registered leisure vessel, You are NOT required to carry registration ( as its not required) , NOT required to have insurance, NOT required to have passports and only required to have a VHF cert if you have a VHF set

What happens when you sail into a french port is another thing entirely. There was a huge huge debate carried out on YBW, including written opinions from french customs and immigration as to the requirement in France to have registration papers , when it was not required on a UK boat.


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Old 27-01-2015, 09:55   #979
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Off course, as a British citizen you are under British jurisdiction. I have an Italian Flagged boat and I sail it with a Portuguese licence. What I said is the the ICC is not legally recognized in Portugal, Spain and Greece, and that is a fact.

The authorities of those countries don't raise problems if one has a ICC but in what concerns legal matters, as for instance an insurance claim or a juridic dispute about responsibilities on an accident the fact is that you legally are sailing without a legally valid licence in countries that demand one. I believe that can bring a lot of problems if one is caught on that situation, I mean a juridic/insurance dispute.
I give up.. its like talking to a Socialist politician.. the answer is always 'I don't accept that'.. despite real life evidence to the contrary.. get enough of that on Sky News..
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Old 27-01-2015, 10:25   #980
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
And I would say that you would be incorrect.

LEGALLY............the situation is:

You must carry on board your registration certificate (SSR or 'Part 1' for UK boats) your passports, a copy of your insurance documentation and a VHF operators licence. These rules apply to all EU countries for a EU registered boat with EU owner/skipper.

No foreign country can dictate what qualifications or safety equipment a yacht or skipper in their waters must conform to except it should conform to the rules of the country in which the boat is registered. (The UK does not require any qualification to 'drive' a boat so you do not need to carry one.) You may choose to, because not all Spanish Customs/Guardia Civil know that is the UK law! To have a ICC or Yachtmaster is useful.

And thats about it ........ a Spanish judge will have to defer to this protocol.
You are confusing two things, the safety equipment a foreign registered boat carries (and you are right about that) with the licence a skipper has to have (or not) to sail the territorial waters of another country. There is not any agreement regarding that in the EC, like for instance in what regards the car driving licence, so each country can demand what they want. ICC is accepted in the countries that have signed that protocol, that are most of European but Portugal, Spain Greece and also (out of Europe) USA didn't, so those licences are not legally valid on those countries.

Do you think that if a country would not demand a car driving licence citizens of that country would be free to drive cars in UK without licence? Off course not. The only car licences that allow a foreign driver to drive on UK are those that are accepted by International treaties subscribed by UK. The same happens with boat licences in territorial waters of any country.
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Old 27-01-2015, 11:05   #981
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Polux.

The Spanish authorities ask that Boat owners should clear customs if entering Spain for the first time. The following documents are required:

registration papers
crew passports
certificate of competence
evidence of the boat's VAT status
crew list with passport details
radio licence
certificate of insurance
A VAT paid or exempt yacht can apply for a permiso aduanero.

Whilst the ICC is not recognised internally within Spain, and they have their own licencing standards for Spanish residents, it is accepted as a valid certificate of competence for non residents. This logically can only be issued by the home country of the visitor. Up to now it is accepted by the Spanish maritime authority.

Any person buying property or living in Spain, will have to eventually get the Spanish licence:
Patrón de Navegación Básica (PNB) (Basic Navigation Skipper)
Licence to skipper a sailing yacht maximum 8 metres in length or a motor boat maximum 6 metres (with a motor appropriate to the size) provided the boats stay within 4 miles of the shore
Patrón de Embarcaciones de Recreo (PER) (Recreational Vessel's Skipper)
Licence to skipper a motor boat up to 12 metres, within 12 miles of shore
Patrón de Yate (Yacht Master)
Licence to skipper a yacht up to 20 metres within 60 miles of land
Capitán de Yate (Yacht Captain)
No limitations
Patrón de Moto Náutica (Motor Boat Skipper)
Patrón de Moto Náutica C (licence C to skipper boats under 55 CV)
Patrón de Moto Náutica B (licence B to skipper boats between 55 CV and 110 CV)
Patrón de Moto Náutica A (licence A to skipper boats from 110 CV)

HOWEVER: Some foreign boating permits are recognised in Spain, including the US Coast Guard Licence, the RYA Yacht Master Certification and the International Certificate of Competence, and exemption can be acquired. Consult the local marina for details as rules vary by region.
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Old 27-01-2015, 11:41   #982
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
..
HOWEVER: Some foreign boating permits are recognised in Spain, including the US Coast Guard Licence, the RYA Yacht Master Certification and the International Certificate of Competence, and exemption can be acquired. Consult the local marina for details as rules vary by region.
Yes I agree, as in most countries including Spain, Us Coast guard, Rya Master certification are recognized as valid licences.

ICC is tolerated but not legally accepted in Spain. As it was said already Spain, Portugal, Greece, USA and some other countries do have not signed that agreement and that licence is not legally valid. There is a difference in having a legally valid licence and one that even if not valid the authorities of those countries chose not to create problems to the ones that only have them. If they decide otherwise in any given moment they are in their right.
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Old 27-01-2015, 12:06   #983
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

On topic again and with another Gib'sea 11.6 that circumnavigated, this one with 3 police from Norway, one of them a women. Great images on the facebook and their site:
Welcome to S/Y Blaatur!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jordo...01505393223074









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Old 27-01-2015, 13:02   #984
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I believe you did not understand what I wanted to say with this:



Maybe I was not clear enough or the insure claim is a misappropriated term but I was nor referring to a direct claim to your insurance company but a situation when the insurances companies, your's and for instance, the one of a Spanish boat involved (let's suppose) on an accident in spain.

Then the situation will go to a competent court, a Spanish one (assuming Spanish territorial waters) and in this case, Having you only the ICC (let's suppose) the Spanish insurance company certainly will refer to the Spanish judge that you don't have a required valid licence to sail your boat on Spanish waters. That may or may not have influence on the judgment but I would say that will have.

The situation will not be different regarding a traffic car accident in UK that reach the court between the insurance companies of a British citizen holding a valid driving licence and a foreigner with no driving licence or one not accepted as valid on the UK. It can have no influence on the judge decision but I doubt very much about that.

It was just what I wanted to point out.
I understood you the first time. Having a license or not will not influence the determination of your negligence. That's a question of causation -- the accident can be caused by your negligence, but it can't be caused by the lack of a license.

A completely different question is whether your insurance coverage can be invalidated by your not having a license. It won't be unless that is specifically said in your policy, and in many countries insurance regulations forbid such a term.

The situation with a car is exactly the same, except that in all countries I know of, you will not get an insurance policy in the first place without a driving license. If you get a policy but your license is lapsed or cancelled, then just like the case with boats, this question has nothing to do with any determination of liability -- it's a completely different question of whether the terms of the policy allow the insurance company to withdraw coverage in case you fail to maintain your license. If there is no such term, then like in the case of boat insurance, the lack of license will not prevent your being covered in case of an accident. In the U.S., insurance companies are allowed to cancel your policy in case you lose your license, but are not allowed to deny coverage in case you get into an accident while your license is suspended, but they have not yet formally cancelled the policy. And if you're driving without a license and even without insurance, and you are involved in an accident which is not your fault, and you are not in a "no-fault" insurance state, then the insurer of the other car is not allowed to deny coverage. I bet it's exactly the same in other countries.

So whether or not you have a license has nothing to do with insurance coverage, unless the policy specifically says that it won't cover you in case you get into an accident without a license, AND if local legislation allows such terms.
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Old 27-01-2015, 13:31   #985
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You are confusing two things, the safety equipment a foreign registered boat carries (and you are right about that) with the licence a skipper has to have (or not) to sail the territorial waters of another country. There is not any agreement regarding that in the EC, like for instance in what regards the car driving licence, so each country can demand what they want. ICC is accepted in the countries that have signed that protocol, that are most of European but Portugal, Spain Greece and also (out of Europe) USA didn't, so those licences are not legally valid on those countries.

Do you think that if a country would not demand a car driving licence citizens of that country would be free to drive cars in UK without licence? Off course not. The only car licences that allow a foreign driver to drive on UK are those that are accepted by International treaties subscribed by UK. The same happens with boat licences in territorial waters of any country.
Actually Polux is right; sort of.

It is a popular myth that coastal states cannot regulate foreign vessels -- they certainly can, even if the foreign vessel is engaged in innocent passage. See Article 21 of UNCLOS.

On innocent passage, as opposed to being cleared in, the coastal state can't regulate "the design, construction, manning or equipment of foreign ships unless they are giving effect to generally accepted international rules or standards", which means that a coastal state could not insist on some peculiar local license of the skipper of a foreign vessel on innocent passage. Whether or not the ICC is a "generally accepted . . . rule or standard"; probably not, but could be.

And once you clear in, you are subject to any rule the coastal state wants to impose, including licensing, and also safety. It's a different question whether the coastal state actually does require something different from the flag state. Most coastal states do not attempt to burden foreign vessels except in specific cases like environmental regulations -- it would be hard for a globe-trotting vessel to comply with all kinds of different rules, and it would be bad for business for the coastal state that made unusual demands. But that doesn't mean they can't, if they want to.

So if Spain demands that the skipper has a license of some kind, then if you plan to clear into Spain, you'd better have it. And that's what the RYA advise, too: Evidence of Competence Abroad | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Information & Advice | RYA
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Old 27-01-2015, 13:34   #986
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Both of you are wrong here.


When you sail in national waters, you are in effect , within the boundaries of that countries borders, exactly as if you had walked across their border.

All laws that apply to that national territory , apply to you, the flag state of your boat does NOT convey diplomatic privilege.

HOWEVER, in general peaceful countries apply the law of comity, to such situations, i.e. they do not criminalise ( in general ) issues that in your own country are not illegal. the application of such " largesse " has limits of course.

Hence Spain or Portugal will recognise ( often in law) that foreigners on board there own vessels will be exempt from local laws . This is true only upto a point.

Hence in Poluxs case, a Spainish judge would typically apply the test case of seeing if the foreigner on his own boat was in compliance with his own domestic laws, and if that was so, He would adjudicate according. He would not give the Spainish skipper any advantage in that regard.

As as aside Spain and Portugal and others have not recognised Article 40 of the UNECE, simply because to formally do so would allow their own citizens to use it instead. Its not because they don't like the ICC, merely they don't want to undermine their own.

( For example Ireland was late signing, because it does not require any certification, and was worried that it might force certification on its sailors , what a cuddly country !!)

To back up my point at the top . Irelands mandatory lifejacket legislation, applies to ALL leisure boats in its territorial waters. You gain no respite claiming foreign registration or being from another country, i.e. in this case Ireland does not recognise comity. (mind you at most you'll get a ticking off)

IN france , as was explained to me repeatedly the French code of safety equipment also applies to all boats within its territorial waters, even if the French authorities are generally less rigorous about apply to foreigners ( I have however been pulled up on the flares, they are hot on that )

Dave
I didn't see this when I wrote my post -- this is exactly right and better expressed than my post was
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Old 27-01-2015, 13:34   #987
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I give up.. its like talking to a Socialist politician.. the answer is always 'I don't accept that'.. despite real life evidence to the contrary.. get enough of that on Sky News..
Hehehe,, it take a certain number of post to know that!!!
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Old 27-01-2015, 13:42   #988
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Hehehe,, it take a certain number of post to know that!!!

Sure does; wasted breath trying to communicate with that one.
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Old 27-01-2015, 13:46   #989
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Sure does; wasted breath trying to communicate with that one.
Could be a Aries, you know, TX is working nice but RX is goneee!!!
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Old 27-01-2015, 15:21   #990
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
... It's a different question whether the coastal state actually does require something different from the flag state. Most coastal states do not attempt to burden foreign vessels except in specific cases like environmental regulations -- it would be hard for a globe-trotting vessel to comply with all kinds of different rules, and it would be bad for business for the coastal state that made unusual demands. But that doesn't mean they can't, if they want to.
By the way do you know about the new laws on the Baltic regarding prohibition of discharges of black water? Do they have enough pumping stations to make that viable?

Regarding Greece they had increased last year the mandatory insurance regarding pollution, I mean on the insurance police it should be specified the right amount that they demand in what regards coverage.
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