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Old 26-01-2015, 06:58   #961
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Just seems to me... with storage space being a premium on a circumnavigation... I'd personally opt for a vessel which doesn't require or recommend a spare rudder.
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Old 26-01-2015, 07:55   #962
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Yup, as far as I am concerned any boat that needs people to hang their legs over the side like that is not fit for 'offshore' cruising use.....
Fell off my chair laughing. Good point...

BTW - my friend who lost his rudder just coming in to the marina may have bumped the channel which needed dredging. He didn't want to talk about it as I remember. But the problem was not whether the rudder paddle itself needed reinforcement, but how the stem was secured to the boat. It might have been a "user" error though in that the owner might have done something wrong doing some work on the packing gland (if they have one) or some other work. This one incident does not condemn Hunters for offshore work in my mind. The the comment here might..... Of course all you have to do is reduce sail and not try to get the highest speed possible in a race. Lots of heavy cruisers reduce sail all the time but not as soon as a lighter built boat who might still beat them on a passage.
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Old 26-01-2015, 11:37   #963
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
[/SIZE][/FONT]
Regarding the ICC being a fraud... I took the exam in the 80's ...
I am not talking about the 80's but now. And I am talking about fraud to be recognized as comparable to the licence required in Portugal or Spain for cruising normally along the coast. For that you need at a licence that is similar to RYA yacht master coastal or offshore and that demands some documented previous experience as a skipper well as a intensive course of 5 days.

What do you need to take a ICC if you have no experience as skipper or in fact don't know nothing is this:

"If you have no knowledge of navigation or collision regulations then you can arrange for 1-2 days of intensive shore based tuition. If you already have knowledge of navigation, collision regulations and basic boat handling the simplest way to achieve your ICC is to attend a 1 or 2 day assessment course (depending on skill level) or book a day of own boat tuition. There is also an option to fast track your ICC application (in 1-2 days) for an additional fee..."
ICC, International Certificate of Competence, Sailing Qualification to charter a yacht in Greece | Island Sailing

I call it a fraud to issue a licence that is equivalent to RYA Yacht master coastal" to someone with no knowledge of navigation or collision regulation or basic boat handling with 1 or two days of intensive shore based tuition, a licence that with an additional fee can be obtained in 1 or two days.

You can consider that someone with almost no boating experience can be seriously certified competent to be a skipper on that short time, I don't think so and probably it is the reason that neither Portugal, Spain or Greece recognize the ICC as a valid licence even if they prefer not to raise problems. It is however good to know that if you have an accident on those waters legally you are in transgression, sailing on the territorial waters of a country that requires a licence without having one (the ICC is not recognized as a valid licence). The consequences of that in what regards insurance problems can be significant.
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Old 26-01-2015, 11:40   #964
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Where's your sense of humour
Sorry about that. I have heard very strange things on this and other threads and it is difficult to understand when one is joking or for real

Glad you were joking
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Old 26-01-2015, 12:04   #965
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

On topic, Blue Marin a brand new (at the time) Dehler 41DS with a Norwegian family circumnavigated in 4 years.

BLUE MARLIN









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Old 26-01-2015, 12:12   #966
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Just seems to me... with storage space being a premium on a circumnavigation... I'd personally opt for a vessel which doesn't require or recommend a spare rudder.
Just no pleasin' some guys . . . .
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Old 26-01-2015, 12:46   #967
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Having a spare rudder on a boat kinda makes me think of "can of soup."

Typically when one buys a can of soup, there are recipes on the back that suggests making the soup better. For example, one may find that a can of chicken noodle soup suggests adding chicken and fresh vegetables.

Is some posts message implied herein suggest that to make a boat better -- Hunter to be Blue water boat -- suggest adding a spare rudder?

Hmmmm ... Great thread... It contains many associations to other non related topics yet finely threaded to a strong weave of the topic initially posted.
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Old 26-01-2015, 17:03   #968
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Polux... I took the Practical/Theory on the water in the 80's.. the Spanish Licence it helped me get was in '97 in the Port of Fuengirola and was overseen by the Port Captain and a lawyer.. as I was being hired by a Spanish company.. no exam.. what I provided was sufficient.. a Certificate entitling me to operate sail/power up to 24m/80 GT.. maybe the fact I was living aboard a boat I'd sailed down from the UK at the time helped... but knowing the way things work I doubt it..
As to me having a Portuguese flagged boat and sailing to the Carib.. no problem.. as long as like the ARC it meets with the safety requirements.. which you more or less make up during the registration/inspection.. but I do not need a Portuguese licence to sail her..
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Old 27-01-2015, 04:45   #969
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

A Spanish couple from Galicia circumnavigated in 5 years on a Lagoon 470:

Vuelta al mundo en catamarán



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Old 27-01-2015, 04:54   #970
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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...As to me having a Portuguese flagged boat and sailing to the Carib.. no problem.. as long as like the ARC it meets with the safety requirements.. which you more or less make up during the registration/inspection.. but I do not need a Portuguese licence to sail her....
Off course, as a British citizen you are under British jurisdiction. I have an Italian Flagged boat and I sail it with a Portuguese licence. What I said is the the ICC is not legally recognized in Portugal, Spain and Greece, and that is a fact.

The authorities of those countries don't raise problems if one has a ICC but in what concerns legal matters, as for instance an insurance claim or a juridic dispute about responsibilities on an accident the fact is that you legally are sailing without a legally valid licence in countries that demand one. I believe that can bring a lot of problems if one is caught on that situation, I mean a juridic/insurance dispute.
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Old 27-01-2015, 05:22   #971
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Off course, as a British citizen you are under British jurisdiction. I have an Italian Flagged boat and I sail it with a Portuguese licence. What I said is the the ICC is not legally recognized in Portugal, Spain and Greece, and that is a fact.

The authorities of those countries don't raise problems if one has a ICC but in what concerns legal matters, as for instance an insurance claim or a juridic dispute about responsibilities on an accident the fact is that you legally are sailing without a legally valid licence in countries that demand one. I believe that can bring a lot of problems if one is caught on that situation, I mean a juridic/insurance dispute.
What kind of license you have is relevant in an insurance situation only

1. If you are violating the terms of your insurance policy -- i.e., if your policy requires you to have a certain kind of license as a condition to coverage, and if not having that license; or

2. If your insurance policy requires you, as a condition to coverage, to comply with some law concerning licensing which you are violating by not having some license.

Otherwise, what license you have or don't have is irrelevant to the question of whether you are negligent or grossly negligent in some accident situation, which is determined by what you actually did in connection with the accident.

Most countries have legal limits on circumstances which can invalidate insurance coverage. In the UK, boat policies do not make any kind of licensing or qualification a condition to coverage no matter where you are sailing. At most, having a certain qualification (as is the case for my own insurance) gives you a small discount on your premium.

UK boat insurance is the cheapest in the world I've ever heard of -- I pay $1200 a year for $10 million of liability, $1 million of boat value, plus dinghy, personal property, legal help, crew injuries, etc., etc. -- half of what I used to pay in the U.S. for a boat worth 1/10 as much and with much lower liability limits. Plus I have a cruising range from Gibraltar in the South to St. Petersburg, Russia in the East, and no limitation on single handing or ocean passages or distance from shore. This reflects the very low insurance claims rate for UK sailors -- very few accidents and few insurance claims, compared to U.S. and other sailors. That's yet another reason why no one is in a hurry to impose licensing in the UK -- UK sailors are already among the safest in the world.
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Old 27-01-2015, 06:33   #972
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
A Spanish couple from Galicia circumnavigated in 5 years on a Lagoon 470:

Vuelta al mundo en catamarán



Finally a catamaran, I love it!
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Old 27-01-2015, 07:02   #973
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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UK boat insurance is the cheapest in the world I've ever heard of -- I pay $1200 a year for $10 million of liability, $1 million of boat value, plus dinghy, personal property, legal help, crew injuries, etc., etc. -- half of what I used to pay in the U.S. for a boat worth 1/10 as much and with much lower liability limits. Plus I have a cruising range from Gibraltar in the South to St. Petersburg, Russia in the East, and no limitation on single handing or ocean passages or distance from shore. This reflects the very low insurance claims rate for UK sailors -- very few accidents and few insurance claims, compared to U.S. and other sailors. That's yet another reason why no one is in a hurry to impose licensing in the UK -- UK sailors are already among the safest in the world.
That is remarkably cheap. I am accident-free and in the US I pay 3x that for 25% of boat value and much less liability coverage, and this has been consistent with what two other large insurers that I've been with charge. What's even more remarkable is that UK waters aren't exactly the easiest cruising grounds!
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Old 27-01-2015, 07:07   #974
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Finally a catamaran, I love it!
I have already posted about several mass production cats that had circumnavigated
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Old 27-01-2015, 07:21   #975
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
What kind of license you have is relevant in an insurance situation only

1. If you are violating the terms of your insurance policy -- i.e., if your policy requires you to have a certain kind of license as a condition to coverage, and if not having that license; or

2. If your insurance policy requires you, as a condition to coverage, to comply with some law concerning licensing which you are violating by not having some license.

Otherwise, what license you have or don't have is irrelevant to the question of whether you are negligent or grossly negligent in some accident situation, which is determined by what you actually did in connection with the accident.

Most countries have legal limits on circumstances which can invalidate insurance coverage. In the UK, boat policies do not make any kind of licensing or qualification a condition to coverage no matter where you are sailing. At most, having a certain qualification (as is the case for my own insurance) gives you a small discount on your premium.
...
I believe you did not understand what I wanted to say with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
...
The authorities of those countries don't raise problems if one has a ICC but in what concerns legal matters, as for instance an insurance claim or a juridic dispute about responsibilities on an accident the fact is that you legally are sailing without a legally valid licence in countries that demand one. I believe that can bring a lot of problems if one is caught on that situation, I mean a juridic/insurance dispute.
Maybe I was not clear enough or the insure claim is a misappropriated term but I was nor referring to a direct claim to your insurance company but a situation when the insurances companies, your's and for instance, the one of a Spanish boat involved (let's suppose) on an accident in spain.

Then the situation will go to a competent court, a Spanish one (assuming Spanish territorial waters) and in this case, Having you only the ICC (let's suppose) the Spanish insurance company certainly will refer to the Spanish judge that you don't have a required valid licence to sail your boat on Spanish waters. That may or may not have influence on the judgment but I would say that will have.

The situation will not be different regarding a traffic car accident in UK that reach the court between the insurance companies of a British citizen holding a valid driving licence and a foreigner with no driving licence or one not accepted as valid on the UK. It can have no influence on the judge decision but I doubt very much about that.

It was just what I wanted to point out.
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