Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-01-2015, 02:58   #901
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,193
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That document I refer (has I had said) is a Croatian document and regards the licences that are accepted on Croatian waters. Obviously the Croats need a licence for sailing and therefore, as in any other country a licence is needed, all that sailed there are required to have a licence even if in their own countries one is not needed. The document is big and since it regards licences in other countries a bit confusing. They refer RYA licences for UK (and ICC) and I know that they are not needed in UK but I am unfamiliar withe the Swedish licences that as you say are at least mandatory to boats bigger than 12m and more than 4m beam.
They made that list because of the charter business. In my experience anything that looked official enough was accepted. For a while charter agencies would print a sailing licence out for you if you needed one...

It's quite interesting that countries with a huge sailing tradition, like the UK or The Netherlands don't require licences for yachts under their flag. France also does not require a licence for sailboats.
__________________

__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 03:38   #902
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,824
Images: 1
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

The rules in Denmark are quite simple.

If you have a speedboat (complicated formula but let's just say over 25HP) then you need a speedboat license.

For sailboats you need nothing at all until the boat gets over 15 meters (50 feet). Then you need a Yachtmaster 3rd class.

If you are going further afield than the end of the English Channel or west of greenland and your boat is over 15 meters then you need a Yachtmaster 1st class

The above only applies to Danish flagged boats.

There is one other license which is called the Proficiency License - It is voluntary (ranks below all Yachtmasters) and having it means you get a 10% discount on your insurance.

Anyone who wants to can buy a boat up to 14.99 meters and sail it as they please.

Denmark requires you to have whatever your home country requires you to have if you are a visiting boat/sailor
__________________

__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 04:19   #903
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,601
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
...
It's quite interesting that countries with a huge sailing tradition, like the UK or The Netherlands don't require licences for yachts under their flag. France also does not require a licence for sailboats.
Yes, off course, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece are not countries with a big sailing tradition. The fact that they discovered the world and have charted the trade winds is just a small detail
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 04:41   #904
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,601
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Oh my goodness...

Pollux, you are ignoring my basic question: Is there any evidence that this licensing actually has reduced losses.

This is the fourth time I have asked it.

I guess the answer must not agree with the hypothesis that you promote.
...
Jim
Yes I agree, this is out of subject of the thread and anyone is entitled to your opinion. Regarding your basic question: "Is there any evidence that this licensing actually has reduced losses" it is about the same as asking will RYA sailing courses (day skipper, yachtmaster coastal, yachmaster offshore, yachmaster ocean) or other equivalent course will better inexperienced sailors and will contribute to diminish loses and make navigation safer?

I believe the answer is obvious. I have seen them recommended on this forum to inexperienced sailors many times by experienced sailors.

Those courses correspond basically to the demands of the several qualifications in Portugal and Spain for the different licenses with a big difference: on Rya courses the examination and approbation is given by the school, in what regards countries that demand licences there are many schools but the examination to obtain the certificate is an independent official one and probably the fail tax is much bigger. If you are not able and have the needed competences you will fail and that happens to some poor guys that are really not suited for sailing, not one, but several times. Like in what regards driving licence, some will never be able to pass the examination and that is a good thing in what regards safety.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 04:54   #905
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,601
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
The rules in Denmark are quite simple.

If you have a speedboat (complicated formula but let's just say over 25HP) then you need a speedboat license.

For sailboats you need nothing at all until the boat gets over 15 meters (50 feet). Then you need a Yachtmaster 3rd class.

If you are going further afield than the end of the English Channel or west of greenland and your boat is over 15 meters then you need a Yachtmaster 1st class

The above only applies to Danish flagged boats.

There is one other license which is called the Proficiency License - It is voluntary (ranks below all Yachtmasters) and having it means you get a 10% discount on your insurance.

Anyone who wants to can buy a boat up to 14.99 meters and sail it as they please.

Denmark requires you to have whatever your home country requires you to have if you are a visiting boat/sailor
I believe this is relevant in what regards most Nordic countries:

"Boating licences are mandatory almost everywhere in Europe. Even in such countries as do not demand an official licence, such as Denmark and Sweden, you should nevertheless have one, should you have an accident the boatman has to provide evidence of his/her capabilities. Otherwise the latter can loose his/her insurance cover for reason of gross negligence. In the "Licence clause" of insurance contracts the formulation is usually the insurance only pays when the batsman has a certificate of qualifications for the respective grounds as prescribed according to the local regulations."

Führerschein

Just to prevent some possible problems regarding insurance claims it is useful to know that Portugal, Spain Greece and USA don't recognize the ICC even if in most cases they kind of look the other way and don't raise problems to the one that have only that as a licence, but the same will not probably happen with an insurance company.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 04:55   #906
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 18,330
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes, off course, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece are not countries with a big sailing tradition. The fact that they discovered the world and have charted the trade winds is just a small detail
It was not recreational sailors from Portugal, Italy, Spain and Greece who discovered the world. I think the difference in attitudes towards licensing is not in sailing, but rather in political traditions.

All of the above-named countries were dictatorships during much of the 20th century, and absolute monarchies before that (in Greece's case, a vassal of the Ottoman Empire), and have a strong tradition of rigid state control over what citizens do, and an absence of civil liberties. These were also all very poor countries until fairly recently (and since 2008, are rapidly going back to being very poor countries again -- these are exactly the so-called PIGS countries undergoing a sustained fiscal crisis, and in the case of Greece, reverse development), and so with very limited traditions of recreational sailing, with the partial exception of Italy.

This makes for a very different attitude by the state towards the individual liberties of citizens. In the UK, where people have been free since the Middle Ages (Magna Carta in 1215), and in Sweden and the Netherlands, the state thinks twice before regulating what people can do, and generally has to come up with an at least superficially good reason before forcing new regulation on people. For the same reason, British people, unlike most continentals, do not register where they live with the police. In Southern European countries, where people are accustomed to centuries of being poor, voiceless, and under rigid state control, the state has no such qualms.

I'm not a European at all, so don't have any vested interest in any of this -- to a non-European, the cultural differences in this regard are really striking.

Recreational sailing was already a pretty big sport in the UK, Netherlands, and Sweden already in the 1920's. People from these countries consider it a right to go down to the sea, and state intrusion is not welcome -- something like Germans and their beer (which is exempt from taxation under the German Verfassung; absolutely tax-free sailing is also considered a sacred right by the British). There is no evidence that licensing by the state and state regulation of sailing improves safety, and therefore there is considerable resistance to the idea of compulsory licensing in all of these countries. Don't look for the EU to intrude into this issue any time soon -- the EU is battered enough by popular backlash as it is.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 05:12   #907
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,193
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes, off course, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece are not countries with a big sailing tradition. The fact that they discovered the world and have charted the trade winds is just a small detail
Did these sailors have all the proper licences?


What I want to point out however is that you are throwing a lot of stuff all on one heap.
Certificates are not the same as licences. I sat the exam for the "Yachtman Certicate" in Belgium in 1989. As a result I got a nice diploma that I could frame and hang on the wall. (I lost it later in a fire). I now have an "ICC", which is another certificate. I got it by signing a declaration that I knew sailing.

The other distinction you need to make is between the sea and inland waters. Many countries indeed require a boat drivers licence on inland waters. But not always for all boats. The Netherlands for example requires it only for boats over 15m, or faster than 20kph. So most pleasure craft don't require it. And no licence whatsoever is required for operating a pleasure craft at see. A similar situation exists in other countries as well.
A interesting overview I found in this text:
http://upcommons.upc.edu/e-prints/bi...AN%20UNION.pdf

In this document several countries were surveyed, and it is quite interesting that most of them don't require boating licenses...
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 05:16   #908
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,824
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
It was not recreational sailors from Portugal, Italy, Spain and Greece who discovered the world. I think the difference in attitudes towards licensing is not in sailing, but rather in political traditions.

All of the above-named countries were dictatorships during much of the 20th century, and absolute monarchies before that (in Greece's case, a vassal of the Ottoman Empire), and have a strong tradition of rigid state control over what citizens do, and an absence of civil liberties. These were also all very poor countries until fairly recently (and since 2008, are rapidly going back to being very poor countries again -- these are exactly the so-called PIGS countries undergoing a sustained fiscal crisis, and in the case of Greece, reverse development), and so with very limited traditions of recreational sailing, with the partial exception of Italy.

This makes for a very different attitude by the state towards the individual liberties of citizens. In the UK, where people have been free since the Middle Ages (Magna Carta in 1215), and in Sweden and the Netherlands, the state thinks twice before regulating what people can do, and generally has to come up with an at least superficially good reason before forcing new regulation on people. For the same reason, British people, unlike most continentals, do not register where they live with the police. In Southern European countries, where people are accustomed to centuries of being poor, voiceless, and under rigid state control, the state has no such qualms.

I'm not a European at all, so don't have any vested interest in any of this -- to a non-European, the cultural differences in this regard are really striking.

Recreational sailing was already a pretty big sport in the UK, Netherlands, and Sweden already in the 1920's. People from these countries consider it a right to go down to the sea, and state intrusion is not welcome -- something like Germans and their beer (which is exempt from taxation under the German Verfassung; absolutely tax-free sailing is also considered a sacred right by the British). There is no evidence that licensing by the state and state regulation of sailing improves safety, and therefore there is considerable resistance to the idea of compulsory licensing in all of these countries. Don't look for the EU to intrude into this issue any time soon -- the EU is battered enough by popular backlash as it is.
Interesting, I learned something from your post.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 05:19   #909
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,193
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
For the same reason, British people, unlike most continentals, do not register where they live with the police.
I've moved around the continent quite a bit, and never had to register with the police. I did have to register each time with the local government however. I suppose the UK government likes to collect taxes as well, so I assume they require residents to disclose where they live too...
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 05:42   #910
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,193
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
In the "Licence clause" of insurance contracts the formulation is usually [B]the insurance only pays when the batsman has a certificate of qualifications for the respective grounds as prescribed according to the local regulations.
No, the licence clause usually stipulates that the boat must be operated in according with any licence requirements imposed by the authorities. That's at least how Pantaenius states it...
__________________
K_V_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 05:47   #911
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 18,330
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
I've moved around the continent quite a bit, and never had to register with the police. I did have to register each time with the local government however. I suppose the UK government likes to collect taxes as well, so I assume they require residents to disclose where they live too...
Most continental countries maintain registries of citizens administered by the police. See: Resident registration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interestingly, France and Portugal do not seem to have any residence registration.

But all the continental countries I have lived in require registration with the police, both foreigners and locals. In Russia and Italy, a policeman actually visits your home as part of the registration process -- to check that what you put in your application is actually true.

In Germany (and other German-speaking countries), compulsory registration with the police goes back centuries -- it's an ancient institution.

In many countries, there is a special office which maintains these registries (e.g. German "Meldeamt"), usually subordinated to the police directly or to the ministry of the interior (which is the overarching central police institution in most European countries).

When I was a young student in Germany and first went to the Meldeamt to register my residence, I found it a surrealist and even terrifying experience. Waited in line for hours, to be seen by a suspicious police bureaucrat sitting behind a huge ledger set upon a tiny, high desk, who would calmly sit and write something endlessly, and only once in a 15 minutes or so would look up haughtily and invite the next person in line to give his data. "Der Naechste!" It was like something out of a novel by Franz Kafka. The kicker is that when you leave, you have to stand in the same line and go through the whole process again in order to abmelden -- unregister -- and get yet another Schein -- certificate, a large collection of which I still keep as souvenirs from my years living in Germany.


Germany is just like Russia, with this obsession for little pieces of paper as instruments of social control -- the Russians say, pithily (as they do): "Bez bumazhki, ty kakashka -- a s bumazhkoi, chelovek" ("Without a document, you're a little piece of sh*t, oh, but with a document -- a person"). The same attitude -- the drive to regulate and control -- informs this desire to make us all carry sailing licenses, registration certificates, all this other carp. We should resist it. Join the RYA!
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 05:53   #912
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,824
Images: 1
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I believe this is relevant in what regards most Nordic countries:

"Boating licences are mandatory almost everywhere in Europe. Even in such countries as do not demand an official licence, such as Denmark and Sweden, you should nevertheless have one, should you have an accident the boatman has to provide evidence of his/her capabilities. Otherwise the latter can loose his/her insurance cover for reason of gross negligence. In the "Licence clause" of insurance contracts the formulation is usually the insurance only pays when the batsman has a certificate of qualifications for the respective grounds as prescribed according to the local regulations."

Führerschein

Just to prevent some possible problems regarding insurance claims it is useful to know that Portugal, Spain Greece and USA don't recognize the ICC even if in most cases they kind of look the other way and don't raise problems to the one that have only that as a licence, but the same will not probably happen with an insurance company.

Sorry. I'll try to be a bit more accurate.

Aside from a speedboat license - there are -0- license requriements in Denmark until you get to a boat over 15 meters. There are certificates of various degrees of proficiency. The basic certificate, a Sailors Proficiency Certificate does absolutely nothing except get you a discount on your insurance.

If you have no certificate of any kind, are insured and have an accident - then your insurance will pay. Naturally, the insurance company can then (if they desire) look to see who is at fault, how negligent were you etc etc etc, and demand regress, but they can and will do this no matter how many certificates you have.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 05:56   #913
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,601
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

On topic again: Mass production boats that have circumnavigated or sailed extensively and this time two Hunters with the same sailor, a famous one, Mick
Harker. He had three Hunters, started with a 34 that he sailed on the East US coast down to Mexico and up, passed to a Hunter 466 that was sailed extensively crossing several times the Atlantic and finally to his last boat, a Hunter 49 with whom he circumnavigated. He was obviously satisfied with Hunter sailboats and said nice things about them. About the 466:

“My Hunter has sailed through three gale force storms, It hasn’t had a crack or a creak.My 466 is one of the best boats out there. It’s got a light displacement, it’s fast, maneuverable, stable and solid. I’m so happy with my choice, I tell people about it all the time!"
Wanderlust Lures Sailor on Worldwide Voyages that Combine Work with Thrill and Adventure
Mike Harker Passes Away at 64 | Cruising World
Wanderlust 3 Sailing Adventure - Mike Harker: February 2008

His boats were named Waterlust, I, II and III.







Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 05:56   #914
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 18,330
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Sorry. I'll try to be a bit more accurate.

Aside from a speedboat license - there are -0- license requriements in Denmark until you get to a boat over 15 meters. There are certificates of various degrees of proficiency. The basic certificate, a Sailors Proficiency Certificate does absolutely nothing except get you a discount on your insurance.

If you have no certificate of any kind, are insured and have an accident - then your insurance will pay. Naturally, the insurance company can then (if they desire) look to see who is at fault, how negligent were you etc etc etc, and demand regress, but they can and will do this no matter how many certificates you have.
Correct. Whether or not you have a license has no relevance to the question of whether you were negligent or not. At most, you get a discount on your insurance.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2015, 06:38   #915
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,824
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
On topic again: Mass production boats that have circumnavigated or sailed extensively and this time two Hunters with the same sailor, a famous one, Mick
Harker. He had three Hunters, started with a 34 that he sailed on the East US coast down to Mexico and up, passed to a Hunter 466 that was sailed extensively crossing several times the Atlantic and finally to his last boat, a Hunter 49 with whom he circumnavigated. He was obviously satisfied with Hunter sailboats and said nice things about them. About the 466:

“My Hunter has sailed through three gale force storms, It hasn’t had a crack or a creak.My 466 is one of the best boats out there. It’s got a light displacement, it’s fast, maneuverable, stable and solid. I’m so happy with my choice, I tell people about it all the time!"
Wanderlust Lures Sailor on Worldwide Voyages that Combine Work with Thrill and Adventure
Mike Harker Passes Away at 64 | Cruising World
Wanderlust 3 Sailing Adventure - Mike Harker: February 2008

His boats were named Waterlust, I, II and III.








Some interesting write-ups, the boy had an adventuresome spirit!
__________________

__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Production Boats vs Custom Boats seaturkey Monohull Sailboats 64 07-01-2015 07:23
Older, Higher Quality vs Newer Production Boats scevrog Monohull Sailboats 62 21-10-2010 03:23
Hunter 37.6 - Fit for Blue Water Cruising ? saltiepaw Monohull Sailboats 10 22-07-2010 14:12
production boats vs blue water cruisiers judithanne Monohull Sailboats 30 29-09-2005 07:53
More production boats BC Mike Monohull Sailboats 2 24-03-2005 18:29


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:54.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.