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Old 24-01-2015, 09:30   #886
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Somebody had already mentioned Gerry Hughes a Scottish that recently circumnavigated non stop on a First 42S7 (1994/ 2003?) by the five capes, with the particularity of being deaf. Here are some more information regarding his blog, him and the choice of the boat.
Gerry Hughes: My Boat


"From September 1, 2012 to May 8, 2013, Hughes - a Scottish schoolteacher deaf since birth, single-handedly piloted his Beneteau 42s7, Quest III, along a 32,000-mile circumnavigation of the globe via the five southernmost capes. ...
As you would imagine, boat selection is critical in an expedition of this magnitude. Gerry remembered how he came to choose the Quest III, a Beneteau 42s7:"


"I spent a lot of time searching for the right yacht,.. Then, I approached Bill McKay at Troon Marina using an interpreter. After looking at the budget, he suggested a yacht called the Beneteau 42s7. I was surprised at first, thinking she would be far too light for the Southern Ocean and wouldn't stand a chance against the waves.

"I spent weeks thinking carefully if I should listen to Bill, even though he had an excellent reputation. I decided to go for it and a week later, he found the yacht in La Rochelle. My wife and I flew over to see her and decided to buy her. She was amazing and solid, which is what Bill kept saying to me."


http://www.beneteauhorizons.com/2013...re.html#hughes
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Old 24-01-2015, 11:44   #887
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Much as I love linguicia, the above makes me truly glad to not be Portugese. What a load of bureaucratic BS. Same goes for all the other European fiefdoms that impose arbitrary rules like these.

It would be interesting to have unbiased data showing relative loss rates between these countries and the UK. They sail in the same general area, and represent the extremes of legislative control of sailing... from constipating to none. I have to wonder if there is anything gained, other than providing a livelihood for numerous bean counters and enforcers and a soapbox subject for orators.
....
OK, rant over! Just hadda get that off my chest!

Jim
I don't understand why you guys keep talking about Portugal as if in what regards boat licences and prof of competence, Portugal was the only country that demand them or if it was particularly confusing. It seems to me that in Australia is more confusing:

"Boat licence requirements vary in each State of Australia

Each State and Territory within Australia has different laws regarding commercial and recreational boat licences or boat license - ... You can select your State or Territory and find detailed information on the boat licence requirements that a motor boat operator needs to meet in order to get out on the water and boating safely around the Australian coast.

Most States acknowledge the boating licences of other states for a period of time (usually around 3 months) but be sure to check with the Maritime/Boating Authority in your State beforehand for interstate boat license and boat operator requirements. ...

If you have obtained an license in another Country but would like to go boating in Australian waters - generally speaking you will need to obtain the appropriate license locally for the Australian State waters you will be boating in. Some States recognise international boat licenses for a period of time and others do not. ..

Do I really need to get a boat licence?

If you are operating a boat in QLD with a motor greater than 4.5kW (6 HP) you must have a licence and you must have a personal watercraft (PWC) licence to operate a personal watercraft (such as jet skis).

A licence is require in Tasmania when operating a vessel with a motor of 4hp or greater. As of 1st November, 2004 the way a person gets a motor boat licence in Tasmania has changed. Prior to sitting the motor boat licence test an applicant will need to provide proof of boating experience and knowledge.

Getting a Boat Licence in Victoria
Getting your boat licence is a two step process, similar to getting your car drivers licence.

Getting a Boat Licence in WA
As of 1 April 2008, every skipper of a registerable recreational vessel powered by a motor greater than 4.5kwp (6 hp) (RST vessel) will be required to hold a Recreational Skipper’s Ticket (RST)."

Boat Licenses - Boating License Information for Australia - Yacht & Boat

In Europe the situation varies with countries but many require one or several licences linked to the use given to the boat. For what I can see from this official document regarding the different licences that are accepted to sail on Croatia there are many countries that require a licence:

In Austria they are changing the laws, making the licences more demanding but for what I could understood there are 4 licences, one just for 3nm, other to 20nm other to 200nm and an unlimited one. Like in Portugal they have to have a certificate of radio competence.

On the Czech Republic they have one for inshore, other for coastal waters (boats RCD caregory C and D) and other to for boats offshore boats RCD category B and A. Only the last of four is unrestricted in what regards the Area. A certificate of radio competence is demanded too.

In Germany they have only two, one for the Germany waters and Adriatic and inshore and other one unrestricted. A certificate of Radio competence is needed too.

The Italians have three, among them one for Italian waters and Croatia, the other unrestricted. A certificate of radio competence is needed.

In Poland they have four and among them one for territorial waters and Croatia, other unrestricted. A certificate of radio competence is needed.

In Slovenia they have four, among them one for territorial waters and Croatia, other unrestricted. A certificate of radio competence is needed.

In Norway they have 3 and among them one for territorial waters and Croatia, other without restriction. A certificate of radio competence is needed.

In Sweden they have seven, among them, one till 1nm, other till 6nm, other for territorial waters and Croatia, other unrestricted. A certificate of radio competence is needed.

Belgium 3 licences, Switzerland 5 licences, Finland 1 licence, Spain 4 licences, Russia 7 licences, France 4 licences, Denmark 3 licences.

http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TA...%2019-8_14.pdf

For the ones that find odd to have a licence or several, according to the area of sailing, I ask what is a difference regarding being almost universally demanded a car licence, or an airplane licence? A car is certainly much more easy to drive than a sailboat, at least one used without any restriction of area. Do you think that it would be allowed on your country that someone that has not a licence (because in his country one is not required) to drive on your streets and roads?

In any country that needs a licence for sailing it is required that the ones that sail there to have a recognized licence. Most countries, waiting for a common rule on the EC have allowed a kind of fraud, a ICC licence, that is a thing one that sails on a country that don't need licences can obtain in one day. Many countries that demand to his citizens licences look at that rightfully with suspicion, some don't even recognize it, even if they kind of look the other way. Anyway it is expected a EC standard in what regards licences, even if not mandatory, but at that time it will not be accepted the ICC anymore but the equivalent RYA course, I mean equivalent to what will be demanded in on EC for each sailing area.
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Old 24-01-2015, 12:44   #888
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Despite the fact that most countries have licenses doesn't mean they are mandatory. In Finland NO licenses required...
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Old 24-01-2015, 13:06   #889
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Polux wrote: "In Sweden they have seven, among them, one till 1nm, other till 6nm, other for territorial waters and Croatia, other unrestricted. A certificate of radio competence is needed".
I am Swedish and don't understand that, it's definitly nothing I've heard of exept that regarding radio competence, thats correct.
Pär
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Old 24-01-2015, 13:23   #890
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Pollux, your lengthy post is confusing to me, and I'm not sure what your point is, so please excuse me from a detailed response.

But relative to your mentioning of the disparate licences in Australia... do be aware that these licenses are quite trivial in the knowledge required, that they have (in the states that I am familiar with) no relevance to sailing whatsoever, and that once you have the basic license, you are free to sail whatever recreational boat you wish, and wherever you wish to sail it. I think all these licenses are directed at the operators of smallish motor boats (tinnies in local parlance), for these folks have the highest loss rates, I believe, as well as the greatest numbers by far.

This seems rather different in extent than the licenses you and others have described in Europe, where there are differing levels for offshore, etc.

And I again ask: is there any evidence whatsoever that their loss rate is any better than in the UK where there are no such licenses required? No one has presented such data here IIRC, and I personally doubt if it exists

Finally, your argument comparing licensing for driving and for sailing is pretty weak IMO. The consequences for others of an untrained driver in an automobile cruising on crowded highways at high speeds are hardly comparable to those of an untrained sailor on the ocean going 5 knots. Can such a sailor have problems, and possibly cause harm to others? Sure he can, but he isn't likely to hit a school bus full of kids whilst moving at 120 kph. The risks are just not in the same league.

So, I guess that I will continue to question the value of all these licensing rules. Your opinion may differ...

Jim
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Old 24-01-2015, 13:56   #891
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilda View Post
Polux wrote: "In Sweden they have seven, among them, one till 1nm, other till 6nm, other for territorial waters and Croatia, other unrestricted. A certificate of radio competence is needed".
I am Swedish and don't understand that, it's definitly nothing I've heard of exept that regarding radio competence, thats correct.
Pär
The 7 "licences" are only the "diplomas" in the Intygsbok

Polax, the Swedish "licences" are just qualification certificates, just like if you have done various RYA courses. With the exception of the VHF & long range radio certs plus the coast skipper (required for boats greater than 12m x 4m) I don't think any of them are mandatory requirements.
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Old 24-01-2015, 18:04   #892
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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The 7 "licences" are only the "diplomas" in the Intygsbok

Polax, the Swedish "licences" are just qualification certificates, just like if you have done various RYA courses. With the exception of the VHF & long range radio certs plus the coast skipper (required for boats greater than 12m x 4m) I don't think any of them are mandatory requirements.
That document I refer (has I had said) is a Croatian document and regards the licences that are accepted on Croatian waters. Obviously the Croats need a licence for sailing and therefore, as in any other country a licence is needed, all that sailed there are required to have a licence even if in their own countries one is not needed. The document is big and since it regards licences in other countries a bit confusing. They refer RYA licences for UK (and ICC) and I know that they are not needed in UK but I am unfamiliar withe the Swedish licences that as you say are at least mandatory to boats bigger than 12m and more than 4m beam.

Anyway the point I was making is that there are countries in Europe were licences are mandatory, others no. Portugal is far from being an isolated case and the tendency is to harmonize EC requirements in what regards the different licences between the countries that have them to make their equivalence simpler as well as their mutual acceptance, a bit like it was made with the car driving licence. It will also allow a much clearer and uniform position regarding the requirements in what regards licences from countries were licences are not required, stating clearly what are the recognized ones and the equivalence for each of the harmonized licences on countries that have them.
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Old 24-01-2015, 18:26   #893
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
...
This seems rather different in extent than the licenses you and others have described in Europe, where there are differing levels for offshore, etc.

And I again ask: is there any evidence whatsoever that their loss rate is any better than in the UK where there are no such licenses required? No one has presented such data here IIRC, and I personally doubt if it exists....
Jim
I see many times on forums guys with almost no experience talking about buying sailboats and sail away and I have read about some that had done that in fact. I am also familiar with the ridiculous use and abuse of Epirb and Maydays in situations that don't require them mostly by inexperienced sailors that buy a boat and sail away.

With the system of licences you have on some European countries from the first licence to the last, the only one that allows you to cross oceans, it takes about 4 or 5 years to have them. You have to have many sailing hours and miles in between. That is really intensive, what is more usual is to reach the last one in more then 5 years, I would say 10 years is probably the average for the ones that take the last licence, the unlimited one and those are just a minority (most will never need it).

That will diminish radically the number of truly inexperienced sailors that will go bluewater and will have certainly an impact in what regards the number of accidents. As you know experience and knowledge is as important as the boat in what regards seaworthiness. I agree that it is not a warranty, that it can succeed that after all those years and licences a sailor can obtain the last licence just with the minimum of sailing hours and sailing miles between them, but that will be an exception not the rule.
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Old 24-01-2015, 18:43   #894
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
That will diminish radically the number of truly inexperienced sailors that will go bluewater and will have certainly an impact in what regards the number of accidents. As you know experience and knowledge is as important as the boat in what regards seaworthiness. I agree that it is not a warranty, that it can succeed that after all those years and licences a sailor can obtain the last licence just with the minimum of sailing hours and sailing miles between them, but that will be an exception not the rule.
Once again I ask: is there ANY evidence that these license requirements have actually improved the safety at sea so that there are fewer casualties than are experienced in the UK?

You, Pollux, are so very sure that it will reduce the number of accidents. I, Jim, would like to see some factual results that corroborate your opinion. The various European licenses have been in effect for some time now, and if effective, the data should be available to show reduced accidents (not sure what kind you are concerned with... total losses, rescue requests, lives lost??).

In my opinion it is silly to require ten years experience and some sort of license to be able to sail offshore. Some folks will never be adequate sailors to do so, others have demonstrated successful voyages with far, far less experience and no licenses at all. I remain skeptical of the necessity for such licensing.

Jim
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Old 24-01-2015, 19:24   #895
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
....

In my opinion it is silly to require ten years experience and some sort of license to be able to sail offshore. Some folks will never be adequate sailors to do so, others have demonstrated successful voyages with far, far less experience and no licenses at all. I remain skeptical of the necessity for such licensing.

Jim
I did not said that it was needed 10 years. I said that probably that is the average time here in what regards to obtain an unlimited licence that can only be obtained after all the others. It can be obtained faster but that is not what generally happens. Many will never need more than a licence that allows them to sail till 200nm offshore and even if they will take the unlimited one they will probably sail for some years with that one before taking the unlimited one.

It is as silly as demanding a car or airplane licence. It is not the licence that is important but what it represents: compulsory training and knowledge to a needed standard that it is verified on a theoretical examination and a practical one. Again, not different from car or airplane licences. The ones that are not really fit to be sailors will have difficulty in reaching the unlimited licence.
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Old 24-01-2015, 19:44   #896
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Oh my goodness...

Pollux, you are ignoring my basic question: Is there any evidence that this licensing actually has reduced losses.

This is the fourth time I have asked it.

I guess the answer must not agree with the hypothesis that you promote.

And again: Comparing pilot and driver licenses with sailing licenses is not valid, in that the risks to non-participating people is very large in the case of aircraft and automobiles, and very small in the case of offshore sailing. You say there is no difference, I say there is a hell of a big difference.

Not wishing to prolong this discussion, so unless some new info is posted, I shall withdraw.

Jim
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Old 24-01-2015, 22:10   #897
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

To take a yacht overseas from NZ the number licenses you have counts for nothing.

You can only go if someone on board has good experience and has done a similar trip before.

Almost too sensible to be believed.
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Old 24-01-2015, 23:22   #898
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post
To take a yacht overseas from NZ the number licenses you have counts for nothing.

You can only go if someone on board has good experience and has done a similar trip before.

Almost too sensible to be believed.
Sooo.... you can't go because you haven't done it before and you haven't done it before cos we said you couldn't go..... this from the country that said furrin boats couldn't leave despite the fact that they had the skill to get there across pretty substantial bits of ocean...

Do 'they' quantify 'good experience'?
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Old 24-01-2015, 23:43   #899
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Somebody had already mentioned Gerry Hughes a Scottish that recently circumnavigated non stop on a First 42S7 (1994/ 2003?) by the five capes, with the particularity of being deaf. Here are some more information regarding his blog, him and the choice of the boat.
...that was a truly crap bit of youtube vid
"From September 1, 2012 to May 8, 2013, Hughes - a Scottish schoolteacher deaf since birth, single-handedly piloted his Beneteau 42s7, Quest III, along a 32,000-mile circumnavigation of the globe via the five southernmost capes. ...
As you would imagine, boat selection is critical in an expedition of this magnitude. Gerry remembered how he came to choose the Quest III, a Beneteau 42s7:"


"I spent a lot of time searching for the right yacht,.. Then, I approached Bill McKay at Troon Marina using an interpreter. After looking at the budget, he suggested a yacht called the Beneteau 42s7. I was surprised at first, thinking she would be far too light for the Southern Ocean and wouldn't stand a chance against the waves.

"I spent weeks thinking carefully if I should listen to Bill, even though he had an excellent reputation. I decided to go for it and a week later, he found the yacht in La Rochelle. My wife and I flew over to see her and decided to buy her. She was amazing and solid, which is what Bill kept saying to me."


Beneteau Horizons November 2013
OK Polux... I know its a long, hard and cold winter where you are but I think you can stop now , having proven your point. They days are starting to grow longer....

That was a very gutsy voyage. Mind you it was probably easier being deaf... you don't hear your boat creaking and groaning, you don't hear the roar of the surf as a bloody great breaking sea rolls under you..... you don't have to listen to the naysayers either....
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Old 25-01-2015, 02:51   #900
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
In Austria they are changing the laws, making the licences more demanding but for what I could understood there are 4 licences, one just for 3nm, other to 20nm other to 200nm and an unlimited one. Like in Portugal they have to have a certificate of radio competence.
So you need a different licence depending on how far from the Austrian coast you sail? Haven't they noticed they lost their coast in 1918? :-)

Quote:
Belgium 3 licences, Switzerland 5 licences, Finland 1 licence, Spain 4 licences, Russia 7 licences, France 4 licences, Denmark 3 licences.
I think you are confusing licenses for inland water with licenses for the sea.
I know for a fact the for example Belgium does not require any licence for see going yachts. And until recently it wasn't even possible to get one even if you wanted. Belgium only started issuing ICCs a couple of years ago.

Quote:
In any country that needs a licence for sailing it is required that the ones that sail there to have a recognized licence. Most countries, waiting for a common rule on the EC have allowed a kind of fraud, a ICC licence, that is a thing one that sails on a country that don't need licences can obtain in one day. Many countries that demand to his citizens licences look at that rightfully with suspicion, some don't even recognize it, even if they kind of look the other way. Anyway it is expected a EC standard in what regards licences, even if not mandatory, but at that time it will not be accepted the ICC anymore but the equivalent RYA course, I mean equivalent to what will be demanded in on EC for each sailing area.
Actually the ICC has nothing to do with the EU (the EC doesn't exist anymore). It's a UNECE thing, and I wouldn't call it a fraud. It isn't anymore fraudulent than a car driving licence, the requirements for which vary from country to country too.
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