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Old 19-01-2015, 07:59   #871
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
I would have thought that the best test of any boat would be how it stood up to sustained charter work.

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In my experience charter boats get motored from place to place a lot. They usually don't get sailed hard at all. They do get partied on very hard and like Dave said they get some smack tests when Med mooring and the odd time touch the keels. So I guess if you were judging interior/cockpit wear and tear and how well motors stand up then the charter business would be a good judge of how well the boat stands up to it.
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Old 19-01-2015, 08:36   #872
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

In Sweden no registration or demands on the capten if boat under 12*4 meters, only vat when new. Very simple.
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Old 19-01-2015, 09:08   #873
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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In Sweden no registration or demands on the capten if boat under 12*4 meters, only vat when new. Very simple.
Pär
And for boats under 12x4 it's the Swedish cruising club that issues the "registration" paperwork if you want to sail out of Sweden.

What I do know is if there is any obligation to register boats greater than 12x4 if you are staying in Sweden.

I'm pretty sure Sweden does not even make lifejackets on board mandatory.

Very different to US & Aus who both sound very much like nazi-nanny states
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Old 22-01-2015, 16:49   #874
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

And coming back to the subject of this thread a Beneteau 500, bought new in 1988, that circumnavigated for 10 years and keep sailing this time on Northern latitudes. In between they made another circumnavigation, this one a shorter one, only 3 years and a half.

This one ticks all the boxes, from long time living aboard, extensive bluewater cruising for many years.

here is the blog and some pictures:

SailEvent - Join S/Y Jennifer



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Old 23-01-2015, 01:40   #875
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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In my experience charter boats get motored from place to place a lot. They usually don't get sailed hard at all. They do get partied on very hard and like Dave said they get some smack tests when Med mooring and the odd time touch the keels. So I guess if you were judging interior/cockpit wear and tear and how well motors stand up then the charter business would be a good judge of how well the boat stands up to it.
I don't think you can generalise, but certainly talking to Sunsail in the Med, a few years ago, they certainly feel they need a strong boat , The charters are often good sailors and like to trash the gear , as well as the flotilla types, but remember most boats are not in flotillas.

The other thing is that many boats are returned to their owners at the end of the lease period , so its in everyones interest that they are survivable.

I don't think charter = strong boat or charter = fragile boat, arguments stand up. The main difference in charter is usually just the interiors layout and the standards associated with that. The hull, deck, deck gear and engine etc are all usually fairly mainstream.



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Old 23-01-2015, 06:04   #876
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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In my experience charter boats get motored from place to place a lot. They usually don't get sailed hard at all.
From watching bazillions of charters in the Caribe, I would say half of them motor a lot, while the other half are filled with glove-wearing racer-wannabee's sailing the boats way over-canvassed, way over-pinched, way over-heeled and crashing into and through the waves.

From my experience, the average charter boat is abused from both ends much more than our cruising boat.

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Old 23-01-2015, 06:18   #877
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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From watching bazillions of charters in the Caribe, I would say half of them motor a lot, while the other half are filled with glove-wearing racer-wannabee's sailing the boats way over-canvassed, way over-pinched, way over-heeled and crashing into and through the waves.

From my experience, the average charter boat is abused from both ends much more than our cruising boat.

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Can't argue with that, renters never look after things like an owner.
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Old 23-01-2015, 06:24   #878
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Had a young couple from Aussi over last night for a visit and they spent a good part of the evening telling us all the problems they have been having on a charter boat they bought 2 months ago in the BVI's, much of it was about the engine. They are hung up here doing another engine repair after a so called overhaul. They were very upset that their dream is starting out this way. My wife laughed and said, its a boat, get over it.
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Old 23-01-2015, 07:22   #879
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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And for boats under 12x4 it's the Swedish cruising club that issues the "registration" paperwork if you want to sail out of Sweden.

What I do know is if there is any obligation to register boats greater than 12x4 if you are staying in Sweden.

I'm pretty sure Sweden does not even make lifejackets on board mandatory.

Very different to US & Aus who both sound very much like nazi-nanny states
Yes, greater than 12x4 obligation to register. But for ex. 15x3,95 m no mandatory register. And no mandatory lifejackets.
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Old 23-01-2015, 09:04   #880
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I have been inside some of the latest production Beneteaus. I have a good friend with extensive cruising experience and has enough money to buy what he wants. He has a recent 50 model. A beautiful boat! He has built and run a very successful boatyard and has extensive knowledge of boats and what can go wrong with them.

My concern on the interior is that it is wide open with large distances between the port and starboard cabin walls with, in my opinion, inadequate hand holds. And many of the galleys are not U-shaped, but "in-line", which I think is not a good attribute. Having almost lost my wife over a much smaller throw in a U-shaped galley I think this is a definite issue. I would not have an in-line galley for really rough seas.

Obviously that has not been a problem for others so may be my wife just wasn't holding on properly and could have done a better job on the more open boats.
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Old 23-01-2015, 09:20   #881
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Yes, greater than 12x4 obligation to register. But for ex. 15x3,95 m no mandatory register. And no mandatory lifejackets.
The 12x4 had me confused for a while as my boat is 12.2x3.95 and was thinking that only one measurement needed to exceed that.

I guess making lifejackets mandatory is fairly unnecessary as the majority of the boaters I've seen here are wearing their jacket all the time, so I'm guessing that those that don't wear probably have them below anyway.

When I had a Searay here, I carried 6 baltic inflatables that are perfect now for my yacht

I did have one friend who had a boat in Mälaren who had no LJ on board, navigated into Stockholm by street map and once had to borrow a knife from the restaurant because he could not untie his boat.

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Old 23-01-2015, 09:29   #882
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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And many of the galleys are not U-shaped, but "in-line", which I think is not a good attribute. Having almost lost my wife over a much smaller throw in a U-shaped galley I think this is a definite issue. I would not have an in-line galley for really rough seas.
Charter configuration

Thankfully that is normally not the only interior configuration for each boat model.

When I was still looking, I would find what I thought was perfect until I saw the interior layout
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Old 23-01-2015, 12:18   #883
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I speak, read and write German, and read almost every issue of "Yacht". I don't read Italian, but I can read French, and do read "Voile" from time to time.

They are not fundamentally different from any other sailing journals. YM is the best of them...."Voile" is much like the American sailing journals
"Testing" sailboats is a fairly useless activity, as you can't tell much about a boat from a couple of hours on it.
I disagree regarding the quality of boat testing between American and some European magazines. They are different from American magazines where they always say nice things about the boats no matter what. Do you have ever read on an American sail magazine that a big brand Mass prodution sailboat sailed like a dog? I bet you didn't.

Regarding Yachting Monthly to be the best, it depends on what one likes: if that was 15/20 years ago I would agree with you (I signed that one for many years), but the best testers and journalists had moved to Yachting world magazine that passed from a bit snob magazine about big yachts with a luxury impression on glassy pages to a very good sailing magazine. Yachting Monthly is today a very conservative magazine that is losing public.

I said that the best French was "Voile and Voiliers" and not "Voile" magazine but comparing it to American magazines (in what regards test sailing) just does not make sense. On Voile magazine comparative test sails with several boats on the water at the same time and several days test with the same boat are a regular thing. They call it 100nm test even if normally it is not 100nm but much more and that allows the boat to be tested in several sailing and sea conditions. Also the same boat is sometimes tested several times, alone and later on comparative tests.

Also the boats that are tested on US are just very few, a small portion of the boats available on the European market and many times they test boats that are close to be replaced in Europe as a "premiere". For instance the Salona 44 that was elected this year by Sail magazine as boat of the year, a boat that is ending its career in Europe. Testers like Michael Good, chief test sailor from Yacht.de have test sailed more boats of all types by a factor than any American test sailor and his experience and data base is just huge. From big yachts to small mini racers he has done it all, with German method and rigor. Yacht.de was a bit conservator regarding the French magazines that were really at the vanguard, as their sailing boats, but on the last years they have been more and more receptive to new concepts and faster boats.

Big group test is fundamental to effectively compare not only performance but feeling at the wheel, interior amenities, storage space, sail hardware, building quality and nobody is able to join more boats together on the water at the same time than Yacht.de (probably because it is the biggest European sailing magazine). In conjunction with Seilas and other Nordic countries magazines they make regularly big tests and the boats are analyzed with German effectiveness and rigor. Just some examples (just a small sample from what is then published on several issues of the magazine):



http://www.yacht.de/yacht_tv/test_te...ch/a69763.html

Kaufhilfe: Quartett komplett - Yachten + JollenÂ*|Â*YACHT.DE

That is very rare, if ever on Yachting Monthly. Yachting World magazine has done some nice ones, smaller but nice, like this one:



Regarding the tests being pretty useless and even if I knew that already (from other comparative test sails) I bet that the majority would not know that a Varianta 37 (a very inexpensive boat) is much faster and more rewarding boat to sail that either the Bavaria 37 or the Jeanneau 379, as you can conclude from the test sail above (more detailed on the magazine). From other comparative test sail I know that the Varianta will smoke an Oceanis 38 with light winds, being also more agreeable at the wheel...so it is clear that test sails can provide you with useful information to chose a boat, objective one. Regarding interior disposition, personal taste on design, storage and built quality you can see for yourself at a boat show.
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Old 23-01-2015, 12:25   #884
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Had a young couple from Aussi over last night for a visit and they spent a good part of the evening telling us all the problems they have been having on a charter boat they bought 2 months ago in the BVI's, much of it was about the engine. They are hung up here doing another engine repair after a so called overhaul. They were very upset that their dream is starting out this way. My wife laughed and said, its a boat, get over it.
It makes sense, about the engine. Charters go flat out on the engine and transmissions are put to a rude proof, changing from forward to astern without care.
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Old 23-01-2015, 14:29   #885
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Another circumnavigation by a couple on a small mass production boat, a Gib Sea 106. Pity the site in German but pictures have no language difficulty and they have plenty of good ones:
www.Hippopotamus.de





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