Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

[Polux]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Been there done that.. there are 5 categories in Portugal... it all depends how big a fee your happy to pay annually to play.. the more you pay the further you can go...
Level one allows you a 3 mile radius of your home port... gets expensive as you move up..

You mean you have your boat with a Portuguese flag and on the Oceanic cathegory I would like to see that:

These are the two last types:
"a) Tipo 1 - embarcações para navegação oceânica;
b) Tipo 2 - embarcações para navegação ao largo; "

That translate will be 1- sailboats for oceanic navigation and 2 - Sailboats for offshore navigation. The first ones are unlimited the seconds are limited to 200nm out of a port.

On the Artº 4 it says that Oceanic sailboats are "type 1" and on Artº 5 says offshore boats are type 2".

On the Article 12 is made the correspondence of the Type 1 and 2 with the RCD categories A and B.

Off course it is more expensive to registered a boat as Oceanic but the more expensive is the equipment the boat has to have that includes Navtex and a Sextant as well as more equipment.

A RCD class A can be registered in any class but only a Class A can be registered as Oceanic.

Most class A boats in Portugal are not registered as Oceanic because for sailing where that boat is allowed to sail (out of 200nm of a port) you have also to have the maximum qualification in what regards licences, the 4th licence after 3 previous ones, Patrão de Alto Mar and that is not an easy one to pass.

REGULAMENTO DA NÁUTICA DE RECREIO Decrteto

[Saltyrope]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Polux, I can decide if you are just stubborn or naive. Your knowledge of American magazines is also limited. European sailing magazines are similar to mainstream US ones.. The journalist are members of the " marine industry ", they understand the " hand that feeds them "

If you take exemplary magazines like water sailing">blue water sailing , ocean navigator , wooden boat, practical sailor , etc you'll realise that there are truelu excellent magazines that cover stuff never covered in European mags , because specialist magazines can't survive in Europe due to the language barrier.

I have no doubt you beleive all these people are of the highest integrity. , and yes they mostly are, but they are not impartial per se. I had the pleasure of meeting late Geoff Pack , and also Tom Cunliffe , both worked within the " industry " , both knew how the system worked.
Thanks Dave,




Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

My error, I was trying to reply to the original post on this thread. My point is that an offshore vessel must meet certain criteria that if met, would enable it to sail in southern waters in as much safety as possible. If you look up the YNZ site with Category One requirements that has a list of what is required for NZ registered vessels to clear customs. Regards, John

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Saltyrope

My error, I was trying to reply to the original post on this thread. My point is that an offshore vessel must meet certain criteria that if met, would enable it to sail in southern waters in as much safety as possible. If you look up the YNZ site with Category One requirements that has a list of what is required for NZ registered vessels to clear customs. Regards, John

I'm not arguing that their exist rules around the world that are aimed at defining a boat for a type of cruising what I'm arguing is that was not the fundamental purpose of the RCD. , even if it may at some point aim to become that.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Polux]

Originally Posted by boatman61

LOL... and rarely go out in more than a F4-5... and talk about taking big sea's... reminds me of a new Cat on here this time last year..
Hunter owners defend Hunters.. Beneteau love Bene's etc.. and will defend them to the death.. No choice..
Else they're stuck with a boat no one wants...
Stopped listening to Sailing Journo's 40yrs ago...

These are the same journalist testing sailboats for a past edition of the European boat of the year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYs7fDPnvIs

Forece 4/5 you say?

This year edition, as in almost all, they caught some strong weather too. It is normal since those tests are on the winter. They say they like it and that is good for testing the boats. This were the conditions this year:





Regarding defending Bavarias I don't believe any of the testers owns a Bavaria, and me either. In fact personally I find that Bavaria kind of fat and I don't like the interior, but then they did not chose it for being pretty but because it sails well and was stronger then the other boats on test (on that cathegory). Not my opinion, I was not there, theirs.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Polux, I can decide if you are just stubborn or naive. Your knowledge of American magazines is also limited. European sailing magazines are similar to mainstream US ones.. The journalist are members of the " marine industry ", they understand the " hand that feeds them "

If you take exemplary magazines like blue water sailing , ocean navigator , wooden boat, practical sailor , etc you'll realise that there are truelu excellent magazines that cover stuff never covered in European mags , because specialist magazines can't survive in Europe due to the language barrier.
..
Dave

How can you possibly know what I know about American magazines? I subscribed wooden boat for many years (I had a wooden boat) nice magazine but restricted to wooden boats and nothing to do with production boats. Subscribed too for several years Bluewater magazine but the quality seems to have gone down and I gave up some years ago. The others you mention I have read some magazines. Pratical sailor is not very different than PBO, the British magazine but Ocean Navigator and Pratical Sailor do very few boat tests and that is about what we are talking about.

Regarding Europeans not reading American sail magazines due to the language barrier you can only be kidding. Almost all Europeans can read English and your assumption that European magazines have a testing boat quality similar to the mainstream American ones can only be due to the language barrier. Try the German "Yacht", the French "Voile and Voilier" or "Voile Magazine" or the Italian "Giornalle de la Vela", read their boat tests and then you would change of opinion. Even the British "yacht world", as Dockhead commented, is far better than American magazines in what regards boat testing.

One of the reasons why Yacht, the German one, is probably the better is because it's a 2 times a month magazine and they test an huge amount of boats, the vast majority will never be tested by American magazines simply because they will not be imported and are not available on US. You need a large comparison basis to know what is best and need a huge number of test sails to have a solid basis to compare boats of the same type, a thing American testers will have difficulty in having. It is usual on European magazines the same edition having the test of 2 or 3 boats...some American ones come out sometimes without a single boat on test.

Another thing that is common on European sailing magazines is boat tests with several boats of the same type at the water at the same time, sometimes as much as 6 or 7 boats. That can give very precise information about boat differences since the testers are changing boats. Never saw that in an American magazine.

[boatman61]

Hell... how many people have you got Googling for you...

[Jim Cate]

Most class A boats in Portugal are not registered as Oceanic because for sailing where that boat is allowed to sail (out of 200nm of a port) you have also to have the maximum qualification in what regards licences, the 4th licence after 3 previous ones, Patrão de Alto Mar and that is not an easy one to pass.

Much as I love linguicia, the above makes me truly glad to not be Portugese. What a load of bureaucratic BS. Same goes for all the other European fiefdoms that impose arbitrary rules like these.

It would be interesting to have unbiased data showing relative loss rates between these countries and the UK. They sail in the same general area, and represent the extremes of legislative control of sailing... from constipating to none. I have to wonder if there is anything gained, other than providing a livelihood for numerous bean counters and enforcers and a soapbox subject for orators.

It is clear that in many venues, the US being one notable one, little control over offshore sailing is exerted. There are countless accidents and disasters inshore and particularly on lakes and rivers involving untrained and inept boaters. There are surprisingly few such events offshore. It is hard for me to see the value of strict regulation of those activities that don't contribute to the toll while the idiots in speedboats, etc, keep killing and maiming each other. Fortunately, a good many of the idiots are too young to have procreated much, and the Darwin effect may help in the long run.

OK, rant over! Just hadda get that off my chest!

Jim

[Island Time O25]

Speaking of bureaucratic BS. Recently my boatbuilder friend was helping/guiding his buddy in Europe via skype and emails build a power boat of about 32-34ft (10M). So at the latest stage of the construction his buddy started asking how he can transport it to US to register it here so as to get a US homebuilt HIN since that would somehow get around a lot of that bureaucratic BS in his home country and still be less costly and time consuming than home country registration. Amazing, the idiocy of EU and their politicians. They make US based bureaucrats look downright Libertarian.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

Try the German "Yacht", the French "Voile and Voilier" or "Voile Magazine" or the Italian "Giornalle de la Vela", read their boat tests and then you would change of opinion. Even the British "yacht world", as Dockhead commented, is far better than American magazines in what regards boat testing.

I speak, read and write German, and read almost every issue of "Yacht". I don't read Italian, but I can read French, and do read "Voile" from time to time.

They are not fundamentally different from any other sailing journals. YM is the best of them.

"Testing" sailboats is a fairly useless activity, as you can't tell much about a boat from a couple of hours on it. "Yacht" has some great technical articles (they have done some superb stuff on anchors and propellers for example), but YM is by far the best of them, with some actual journalism which is interesting to read. "Voile" is much like the American sailing journals.

Concerning "testing" of boats, YM also has a unique slant in that most boat "tests" are of used boats, many of them decades old. The "test results" and "ratings" are useless, but it's nice to get at least a basic introduction to the boats which most people sail and which most people buy. Reading all day about new production boats does not reflect most sailors' worlds -- few sailors are constantly in the market for new production boats. Only really interesting for a few.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Much as I love linguicia, the above makes me truly glad to not be Portugese. What a load of bureaucratic BS. Same goes for all the other European fiefdoms that impose arbitrary rules like these.

It would be interesting to have unbiased data showing relative loss rates between these countries and the UK. They sail in the same general area, and represent the extremes of legislative control of sailing... from constipating to none. I have to wonder if there is anything gained, other than providing a livelihood for numerous bean counters and enforcers and a soapbox subject for orators.

It is clear that in many venues, the US being one notable one, little control over offshore sailing is exerted. There are countless accidents and disasters inshore and particularly on lakes and rivers involving untrained and inept boaters. There are surprisingly few such events offshore. It is hard for me to see the value of strict regulation of those activities that don't contribute to the toll while the idiots in speedboats, etc, keep killing and maiming each other. Fortunately, a good many of the idiots are too young to have procreated much, and the Darwin effect may help in the long run.

OK, rant over! Just hadda get that off my chest!

Jim

Jim

Danish rules

less than 15 meters (50 feet) you need nothing. Above 15 meters but less than 24 meters sailing in the Baltic and to a line up close to Greenland and no further south than the end of the English channel you need a Yachtmaster Class 3.

Outside that area and in a yacht above 50 feet, you need a Yachtmaster Class 1 (Yachtmaster Ocean).

Damned if can figure out how sailing a big yacht in the Atlantic is more difficult that sailing one down through the Channel...........................

[SimonV]

I would have thought that the best test of any boat would be how it stood up to sustained charter work.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Speaking of bureaucratic BS. Recently my boatbuilder friend was helping/guiding his buddy in Europe via skype and emails build a power boat of about 32-34ft (10M). So at the latest stage of the construction his buddy started asking how he can transport it to US to register it here so as to get a US homebuilt HIN since that would somehow get around a lot of that bureaucratic BS in his home country and still be less costly and time consuming than home country registration. Amazing, the idiocy of EU and their politicians. They make US based bureaucrats look downright Libertarian.

Having lived and worked in both the US and the EU , as a general comment I have found the US to be more bureaucratic.

As for this builders experience, he's obviously very very badly informed as a US HIN is meaningless in Europe. and confers no status on the boat.

In general as far as boats go, there is little bureaucracy iN. Europe as a whole. Portugal being a particular exception. Anyway just register ones boat in Belgium. Etc.

Given the sheer size of the boat market and the massive density of sailing boats it's not surprising there is some controls , not to mention a 1000 year maritime history in many countries

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by SimonV

I would have thought that the best test of any boat would be how it stood up to sustained charter work.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Indeed. Chartering really tests boats , especially hull wear and keel

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Having lived and worked in both the US and the EU , as a general comment I have found the US to be more bureaucratic.

As for this builders experience, he's obviously very very badly informed as a US HIN is meaningless in Europe. and confers no status on the boat.

In general as far as boats go, there is little bureaucracy iN. Europe as a whole. Portugal being a particular exception. Anyway just register ones boat in Belgium. Etc.

Given the sheer size of the boat market and the massive density of sailing boats it's not surprising there is some controls , not to mention a 1000 year maritime history in many countries

Dave

Yeah ,, ask any Spanish boatowner about that, if given the opportunity to flag the boat in Mozambique they would do it without hesitation....

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Having lived and worked in both the US and the EU , as a general comment I have found the US to be more bureaucratic.

As for this builders experience, he's obviously very very badly informed as a US HIN is meaningless in Europe. and confers no status on the boat.

In general as far as boats go, there is little bureaucracy iN. Europe as a whole. Portugal being a particular exception. Anyway just register ones boat in Belgium. Etc.

Given the sheer size of the boat market and the massive density of sailing boats it's not surprising there is some controls , not to mention a 1000 year maritime history in many countries

Dave

Dave is right. The EU has a lot of crazy things, but US bureaucracy is often much worse.

Where boating is concerned, the UK is an absolute paradise. You have to pay VAT when you buy a new boat, but after that taxes on boats in the UK are - get this - zero, zip, nada, nothing.

No registration - none required at all. No license. In UK waters, you don't have to produce a single scrap of paper.

Incomparably less bureaucracy than the US.