Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-01-2015, 16:50   #856
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,535
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Been there done that.. there are 5 categories in Portugal... it all depends how big a fee your happy to pay annually to play.. the more you pay the further you can go...
Level one allows you a 3 mile radius of your home port... gets expensive as you move up..
You mean you have your boat with a Portuguese flag and on the Oceanic cathegory I would like to see that:

These are the two last types:
"a) Tipo 1 - embarcações para navegação oceânica;
b) Tipo 2 - embarcações para navegação ao largo; "


That translate will be 1- sailboats for oceanic navigation and 2 - Sailboats for offshore navigation. The first ones are unlimited the seconds are limited to 200nm out of a port.

On the Artº 4 it says that Oceanic sailboats are "type 1" and on Artº 5 says offshore boats are type 2".

On the Article 12 is made the correspondence of the Type 1 and 2 with the RCD categories A and B.

Off course it is more expensive to registered a boat as Oceanic but the more expensive is the equipment the boat has to have that includes Navtex and a Sextant as well as more equipment.

A RCD class A can be registered in any class but only a Class A can be registered as Oceanic.

Most class A boats in Portugal are not registered as Oceanic because for sailing where that boat is allowed to sail (out of 200nm of a port) you have also to have the maximum qualification in what regards licences, the 4th licence after 3 previous ones, Patrão de Alto Mar and that is not an easy one to pass.

REGULAMENTO DA NÁUTICA DE RECREIO Decrteto
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 16:51   #857
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Napier, New Zealand
Boat: 1968 Sparkman and Stephens. '1 ton' 36 ft, Kauri
Posts: 34
Send a message via Skype™ to Saltyrope
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Polux, I can decide if you are just stubborn or naive. Your knowledge of American magazines is also limited. European sailing magazines are similar to mainstream US ones.. The journalist are members of the " marine industry ", they understand the " hand that feeds them "

If you take exemplary magazines like water sailing">blue water sailing , ocean navigator , wooden boat, practical sailor , etc you'll realise that there are truelu excellent magazines that cover stuff never covered in European mags , because specialist magazines can't survive in Europe due to the language barrier.

I have no doubt you beleive all these people are of the highest integrity. , and yes they mostly are, but they are not impartial per se. I had the pleasure of meeting late Geoff Pack , and also Tom Cunliffe , both worked within the " industry " , both knew how the system worked.
Thanks Dave,




Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
My error, I was trying to reply to the original post on this thread. My point is that an offshore vessel must meet certain criteria that if met, would enable it to sail in southern waters in as much safety as possible. If you look up the YNZ site with Category One requirements that has a list of what is required for NZ registered vessels to clear customs. Regards, John
__________________

__________________
Saltyrope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 16:57   #858
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltyrope View Post
My error, I was trying to reply to the original post on this thread. My point is that an offshore vessel must meet certain criteria that if met, would enable it to sail in southern waters in as much safety as possible. If you look up the YNZ site with Category One requirements that has a list of what is required for NZ registered vessels to clear customs. Regards, John

I'm not arguing that their exist rules around the world that are aimed at defining a boat for a type of cruising what I'm arguing is that was not the fundamental purpose of the RCD. , even if it may at some point aim to become that.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 17:03   #859
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,535
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
LOL... and rarely go out in more than a F4-5... and talk about taking big sea's... reminds me of a new Cat on here this time last year..
Hunter owners defend Hunters.. Beneteau love Bene's etc.. and will defend them to the death.. No choice..
Else they're stuck with a boat no one wants...
Stopped listening to Sailing Journo's 40yrs ago...
These are the same journalist testing sailboats for a past edition of the European boat of the year:

Forece 4/5 you say?

This year edition, as in almost all, they caught some strong weather too. It is normal since those tests are on the winter. They say they like it and that is good for testing the boats. This were the conditions this year:





Regarding defending Bavarias I don't believe any of the testers owns a Bavaria, and me either. In fact personally I find that Bavaria kind of fat and I don't like the interior, but then they did not chose it for being pretty but because it sails well and was stronger then the other boats on test (on that cathegory). Not my opinion, I was not there, theirs.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 17:40   #860
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,535
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Polux, I can decide if you are just stubborn or naive. Your knowledge of American magazines is also limited. European sailing magazines are similar to mainstream US ones.. The journalist are members of the " marine industry ", they understand the " hand that feeds them "

If you take exemplary magazines like blue water sailing , ocean navigator , wooden boat, practical sailor , etc you'll realise that there are truelu excellent magazines that cover stuff never covered in European mags , because specialist magazines can't survive in Europe due to the language barrier.
..
Dave
How can you possibly know what I know about American magazines? I subscribed wooden boat for many years (I had a wooden boat) nice magazine but restricted to wooden boats and nothing to do with production boats. Subscribed too for several years Bluewater magazine but the quality seems to have gone down and I gave up some years ago. The others you mention I have read some magazines. Pratical sailor is not very different than PBO, the British magazine but Ocean Navigator and Pratical Sailor do very few boat tests and that is about what we are talking about.

Regarding Europeans not reading American sail magazines due to the language barrier you can only be kidding. Almost all Europeans can read English and your assumption that European magazines have a testing boat quality similar to the mainstream American ones can only be due to the language barrier. Try the German "Yacht", the French "Voile and Voilier" or "Voile Magazine" or the Italian "Giornalle de la Vela", read their boat tests and then you would change of opinion. Even the British "yacht world", as Dockhead commented, is far better than American magazines in what regards boat testing.

One of the reasons why Yacht, the German one, is probably the better is because it's a 2 times a month magazine and they test an huge amount of boats, the vast majority will never be tested by American magazines simply because they will not be imported and are not available on US. You need a large comparison basis to know what is best and need a huge number of test sails to have a solid basis to compare boats of the same type, a thing American testers will have difficulty in having. It is usual on European magazines the same edition having the test of 2 or 3 boats...some American ones come out sometimes without a single boat on test.

Another thing that is common on European sailing magazines is boat tests with several boats of the same type at the water at the same time, sometimes as much as 6 or 7 boats. That can give very precise information about boat differences since the testers are changing boats. Never saw that in an American magazine.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 17:51   #861
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 19,742
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Hell... how many people have you got Googling for you...
__________________

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Click on de Pic 4 de Site^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 20:53   #862
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 10,036
Send a message via Skype™ to Jim Cate
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Most class A boats in Portugal are not registered as Oceanic because for sailing where that boat is allowed to sail (out of 200nm of a port) you have also to have the maximum qualification in what regards licences, the 4th licence after 3 previous ones, Patrão de Alto Mar and that is not an easy one to pass.
Much as I love linguicia, the above makes me truly glad to not be Portugese. What a load of bureaucratic BS. Same goes for all the other European fiefdoms that impose arbitrary rules like these.

It would be interesting to have unbiased data showing relative loss rates between these countries and the UK. They sail in the same general area, and represent the extremes of legislative control of sailing... from constipating to none. I have to wonder if there is anything gained, other than providing a livelihood for numerous bean counters and enforcers and a soapbox subject for orators.

It is clear that in many venues, the US being one notable one, little control over offshore sailing is exerted. There are countless accidents and disasters inshore and particularly on lakes and rivers involving untrained and inept boaters. There are surprisingly few such events offshore. It is hard for me to see the value of strict regulation of those activities that don't contribute to the toll while the idiots in speedboats, etc, keep killing and maiming each other. Fortunately, a good many of the idiots are too young to have procreated much, and the Darwin effect may help in the long run.

OK, rant over! Just hadda get that off my chest!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann
s/v Insatiable II, back in Hobart for slipping and other unpleasant activities.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 21:15   #863
Registered User
 
Island Time O25's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,830
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Speaking of bureaucratic BS. Recently my boatbuilder friend was helping/guiding his buddy in Europe via skype and emails build a power boat of about 32-34ft (10M). So at the latest stage of the construction his buddy started asking how he can transport it to US to register it here so as to get a US homebuilt HIN since that would somehow get around a lot of that bureaucratic BS in his home country and still be less costly and time consuming than home country registration. Amazing, the idiocy of EU and their politicians. They make US based bureaucrats look downright Libertarian.
__________________
Island Time O25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 21:29   #864
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,228
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Try the German "Yacht", the French "Voile and Voilier" or "Voile Magazine" or the Italian "Giornalle de la Vela", read their boat tests and then you would change of opinion. Even the British "yacht world", as Dockhead commented, is far better than American magazines in what regards boat testing.
I speak, read and write German, and read almost every issue of "Yacht". I don't read Italian, but I can read French, and do read "Voile" from time to time.

They are not fundamentally different from any other sailing journals. YM is the best of them.

"Testing" sailboats is a fairly useless activity, as you can't tell much about a boat from a couple of hours on it. "Yacht" has some great technical articles (they have done some superb stuff on anchors and propellers for example), but YM is by far the best of them, with some actual journalism which is interesting to read. "Voile" is much like the American sailing journals.

Concerning "testing" of boats, YM also has a unique slant in that most boat "tests" are of used boats, many of them decades old. The "test results" and "ratings" are useless, but it's nice to get at least a basic introduction to the boats which most people sail and which most people buy. Reading all day about new production boats does not reflect most sailors' worlds -- few sailors are constantly in the market for new production boats. Only really interesting for a few.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 23:15   #865
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,673
Images: 1
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Much as I love linguicia, the above makes me truly glad to not be Portugese. What a load of bureaucratic BS. Same goes for all the other European fiefdoms that impose arbitrary rules like these.

It would be interesting to have unbiased data showing relative loss rates between these countries and the UK. They sail in the same general area, and represent the extremes of legislative control of sailing... from constipating to none. I have to wonder if there is anything gained, other than providing a livelihood for numerous bean counters and enforcers and a soapbox subject for orators.

It is clear that in many venues, the US being one notable one, little control over offshore sailing is exerted. There are countless accidents and disasters inshore and particularly on lakes and rivers involving untrained and inept boaters. There are surprisingly few such events offshore. It is hard for me to see the value of strict regulation of those activities that don't contribute to the toll while the idiots in speedboats, etc, keep killing and maiming each other. Fortunately, a good many of the idiots are too young to have procreated much, and the Darwin effect may help in the long run.

OK, rant over! Just hadda get that off my chest!

Jim
Jim

Danish rules

less than 15 meters (50 feet) you need nothing. Above 15 meters but less than 24 meters sailing in the Baltic and to a line up close to Greenland and no further south than the end of the English channel you need a Yachtmaster Class 3.

Outside that area and in a yacht above 50 feet, you need a Yachtmaster Class 1 (Yachtmaster Ocean).

Damned if can figure out how sailing a big yacht in the Atlantic is more difficult that sailing one down through the Channel...........................
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2015, 23:54   #866
Registered User
 
SimonV's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia. Currently in Brisbane.
Boat: Ericson 39B
Posts: 1,296
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I would have thought that the best test of any boat would be how it stood up to sustained charter work.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Simon
S/V GOODONYA
http://svgoodonya.blogspot.com.au/
SimonV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2015, 02:23   #867
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Speaking of bureaucratic BS. Recently my boatbuilder friend was helping/guiding his buddy in Europe via skype and emails build a power boat of about 32-34ft (10M). So at the latest stage of the construction his buddy started asking how he can transport it to US to register it here so as to get a US homebuilt HIN since that would somehow get around a lot of that bureaucratic BS in his home country and still be less costly and time consuming than home country registration. Amazing, the idiocy of EU and their politicians. They make US based bureaucrats look downright Libertarian.

Having lived and worked in both the US and the EU , as a general comment I have found the US to be more bureaucratic.

As for this builders experience, he's obviously very very badly informed as a US HIN is meaningless in Europe. and confers no status on the boat.

In general as far as boats go, there is little bureaucracy iN. Europe as a whole. Portugal being a particular exception. Anyway just register ones boat in Belgium. Etc.

Given the sheer size of the boat market and the massive density of sailing boats it's not surprising there is some controls , not to mention a 1000 year maritime history in many countries

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2015, 02:24   #868
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
I would have thought that the best test of any boat would be how it stood up to sustained charter work.

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Indeed. Chartering really tests boats , especially hull wear and keel
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2015, 04:32   #869
Registered User
 
neilpride's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: in the world
Boat: csy 44 tall rig.
Posts: 3,044
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Having lived and worked in both the US and the EU , as a general comment I have found the US to be more bureaucratic.

As for this builders experience, he's obviously very very badly informed as a US HIN is meaningless in Europe. and confers no status on the boat.

In general as far as boats go, there is little bureaucracy iN. Europe as a whole. Portugal being a particular exception. Anyway just register ones boat in Belgium. Etc.

Given the sheer size of the boat market and the massive density of sailing boats it's not surprising there is some controls , not to mention a 1000 year maritime history in many countries

Dave
Yeah ,, ask any Spanish boatowner about that, if given the opportunity to flag the boat in Mozambique they would do it without hesitation....
__________________
neilpride is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2015, 06:42   #870
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,228
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

Having lived and worked in both the US and the EU , as a general comment I have found the US to be more bureaucratic.

As for this builders experience, he's obviously very very badly informed as a US HIN is meaningless in Europe. and confers no status on the boat.

In general as far as boats go, there is little bureaucracy iN. Europe as a whole. Portugal being a particular exception. Anyway just register ones boat in Belgium. Etc.

Given the sheer size of the boat market and the massive density of sailing boats it's not surprising there is some controls , not to mention a 1000 year maritime history in many countries

Dave
Dave is right. The EU has a lot of crazy things, but US bureaucracy is often much worse.

Where boating is concerned, the UK is an absolute paradise. You have to pay VAT when you buy a new boat, but after that taxes on boats in the UK are - get this - zero, zip, nada, nothing.

No registration - none required at all. No license. In UK waters, you don't have to produce a single scrap of paper.

Incomparably less bureaucracy than the US.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Production Boats vs Custom Boats seaturkey Monohull Sailboats 64 07-01-2015 07:23
Older, Higher Quality vs Newer Production Boats scevrog Monohull Sailboats 62 21-10-2010 03:23
Hunter 37.6 - Fit for Blue Water Cruising ? saltiepaw Monohull Sailboats 10 22-07-2010 14:12
production boats vs blue water cruisiers judithanne Monohull Sailboats 30 29-09-2005 07:53
More production boats BC Mike Monohull Sailboats 2 24-03-2005 18:29


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 17:24.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.