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Old 18-01-2015, 11:58   #841
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Came on, everybody knows Sven in Sweden, he is famous and if you know his boats you would know that nobody would thought that was intended for sale. Besides Sven was very specific and certainly we would have not mistaken that:

"I have also been talking in Norrköping, the site of The Swedish Transport Agency. Nice and friendly people but some of the laws they try to enforce are ridicules....When I exhibited my boat in Stockholm I got a note stating that I was forbidden to sell it or use it".
And becouse it was in the internet it has to be true...
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Old 18-01-2015, 12:00   #842
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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And changing subject a hot new: For the first time Bavaria won the title of best mass production of the year (family boat) on the European contest with the Cruiser 46 but more important than to have won is why it has won. The comments are from the jury composed by test sailors from many of the best European sailing magazines:

"In a highly competitive class Cruiser 46 won in the end because it is among the many strong candidates the boat with the highest solidity and robustness. She sails very well balanced with lots of space and many different layouts. Like all Bavaria's it offers excellent value for money - and raised respect in what refers workmanship and equipment standards."

Well, maybe this answers Robert's question on the other thread




Note that on the videos nobody talks about the boat structure (that is not what sells boats) but it seems that what I was saying regarding Bavaria building stronger boats was what lead the jury to choose this boat over the others that were selected on this category, namely the Dufour 310 GL, the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 349 the Nautitech 40 and the RM 890.

I don't think they are being fair in what regards robustness regarding the RM 890 but that is another story.
I wouldn't dispute your comment highlighted above that structural integrity is not a big selling point to the majority of boat buyers, but why is it a feature emphasized in marketing the more expensive boats? Are the buyers of higher end boats the only ones who care about strength, safety, seakindliness, and potential seaworthiness? Why can't a buyer who cares more about these factors and could care less less about electrically operated swim platforms, helm footrests, the ability to host 8 dinner guests, double helms & other convenience features also find a new boat to buy at the lower end of the price spectrum?

Or is it your opinion that there's no meaningful difference in build quality and/or structural integrity between the lower & higher-end boats. Instead, it comes down to more efficient production techniques, fancier interiors, luxury items, and economies of scale?
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Old 18-01-2015, 12:02   #843
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Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I own a Bavaria 36 Cruiser and have been very pleased with it, with one exception.

It has an extreem weather helm under bare poles in high wind (over 40 knots).

I will be in Dusseldorf next week picking the brains of people to find a good solution.

One idea is to install a cutter stay (moveable) and use a storm jib in such conditions. I believe the weather helm is due to the windage of the hull itself, as the boat has high freeboard.

If you do, make sure there is a substantial bulkhead or something to carry the stay. End fitting.

I had one of these fitted to the my 393. But I hardly ever used it.

40kts and bare poles is not a good configuration , these boats like many others can actually sail of the cabin top

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Old 18-01-2015, 12:06   #844
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Nice boat , I have been on it

Mind you what's " stronger" mean. , stronger then what ?, perhaps the journalists after a nice lunch, some canapés , were handed a press statement that read

" Baveria is making strong boats , stronger then ever before " , , really strong in fact

Then the magazine sends Baveria the monthly ad bill of course

Dave
Now that are some unsubstantiated statements!!!:

They explained about what they were talking about regarding to be "the boat with the highest solidity and robustness", the other boast on contest on the category and I added (for the ones that did not know) what were they.

Then about the"magazine sending Bavaria the monthly bill" that is just ridiculous. It seems that you did not even understood I was talking about the European boat contest and the jury is not a magazine but test sailors from many of the best magazines in Europe (10?) one for each country. So why they would prefer to be paid by Bavaria instead of Jeanneau or Dufour (also on contest)? and would they pay to all jury members?

Stating the the jury members were on the take is close to slandering and besides it would not make sense because in past editions small brands have won over big brands. Even on this edition on what regards performance cruisers JPK, a small brand won over big brands like Dehler(Hanse) and Jeanneau.
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Old 18-01-2015, 12:16   #845
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I own a Bavaria 36 Cruiser and have been very pleased with it, with one exception.

It has an extreem weather helm under bare poles in high wind (over 40 knots).

I will be in Dusseldorf next week picking the brains of people to find a good solution.

One idea is to install a cutter stay (moveable) and use a storm jib in such conditions. I believe the weather helm is due to the windage of the hull itself, as the boat has high freeboard.
I had been with a Bavaria 36, 2003 model, lighter than the actual one in 35k+ winds and the boat works well with just a tiny amount of sail out of the genoa. After that because I did not feel safe using the furler on those conditions I bought a storm bag but did only try it on lesser conditions.

Never had the opportunity to try it on the conditions where it would be of use. I sold the boat without meeting those conditions again but I have heard of others that had tried it and said that it worked well.

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Old 18-01-2015, 12:21   #846
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Not, not amazing since you sail a boat with a British flag and therefore the laws that applies to your boat are British ones.
If you had sailed on a British bath tube with documents and British flagged, no problems too.

No, if you change your boat to Portuguese flag, well you will have certainly problems in what regards the register of the boat for offshore use and will also have the boat mandatory inspected regularly. Also you will have to prove that you have aboard all the security material requeired by law for sailing offshore, that is if they approve the boat for being register as offshore. For boats made after the RCD class A is mandatory. I don't know about older boats.
Been there done that.. there are 5 categories in Portugal... it all depends how big a fee your happy to pay annually to play.. the more you pay the further you can go...
Level one allows you a 3 mile radius of your home port... gets expensive as you move up..
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Old 18-01-2015, 12:29   #847
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Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Now that are some unsubstantiated statements!!!:



They explained about what they were talking about regarding to be "the boat with the highest solidity and robustness", the other boast on contest on the category and I added (for the ones that did not know) what were they.



Then about the"magazine sending Bavaria the monthly bill" that is just ridiculous. It seems that you did not even understood I was talking about the European boat contest and the jury is not a magazine but test sailors from many of the best magazines in Europe (10?) one for each country. So why they would prefer to be paid by Bavaria instead of Jeanneau or Dufour (also on contest)? and would they pay to all jury members?



Stating the the jury members were on the take is close to slandering and besides it would not make sense because in past editions small brands have won over big brands. Even on this edition on what regards performance cruisers JPK, a small brand won over big brands like Dehler(Hanse) and Jeanneau.

When journalists start writing about " strength " . Robustness or durability , Inreach for my spectacles that go black at the first sign of fear.

Please stop thinking everyone does not know what you know , I know exactly how European boat of the year is adjudicated..

My magazine and bill is my poor attempt at sarcasm

Did I ever say anyone was on the " take" of course not it does to work like that. But I know how it does work, I've a good friend who is a motoring journalist, a daughter a journalist, a brother a journalist.

Oh and stop exaggerating, the Bav is a nice boat, I poked around it, it has some issues in my experience but I won't start telling them here., in case you start accusing me of libel

Ps I might have been accused of libel not not slander !!!!!!

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Old 18-01-2015, 12:48   #848
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

LOL... and rarely go out in more than a F4-5... and talk about taking big sea's... reminds me of a new Cat on here this time last year..
Hunter owners defend Hunters.. Beneteau love Bene's etc.. and will defend them to the death.. No choice..
Else they're stuck with a boat no one wants...
Stopped listening to Sailing Journo's 40yrs ago...
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Old 18-01-2015, 13:00   #849
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
When journalists start writing about " strength " . Robustness or durability , Inreach for my spectacles that go black at the first sign of fear.

Please stop thinking everyone does not know what you know , I know exactly how European boat of the year is adjudicated..

My magazine and bill is my poor attempt at sarcasm

Did I ever say anyone was on the " take" of course not it does to work like that. But I know how it does work, I've a good friend who is a motoring journalist, a daughter a journalist, a brother a journalist.

Oh and stop exaggerating, the Bav is a nice boat, I poked around it, it has some issues in my experience but I won't start telling them here., in case you start accusing me of libel

Ps I might have been accused of libel not not slander !!!!!!

Dave
Dave's comment was entirely fair.

It's not to say anything bad about journalists to acknowledge that they are highly conscious of the interests of their advertisers, who effectively pay their (miserable) salaries. It's merely realistic.

Motoring journals, since they are read by a fairly large segment of the population, at least have a significant amount of mainstream advertising.

Boating journals are otherwise, and they would not survive if they did not cater closely to the interests of the industry which advertises with them.

I come from five generations of people who owned newspapers and journals, and wrote for newspapers and journals, and taught about writing for newspapers and journals -- I know pretty well how the game works.

You cannot take them too seriously as objective sources of Iinformation. They are not designed to be that -- the articles are mostly just filler between the adverts anyway. It doesn't mean they're totally corrupt, but imagine what joy for them when they can announce "Boat of the Year" as something frequently advertised in their pages -- such joy that you can be sure that they will, in many or most years, find some way to do just that. It's just human nature. It makes it so much easier to send that bill Dave was talking about.

My favorite, by the way, is Yachting Monthly from the UK; far superior to anything we have in the U.S. Still full of a lot of carp (and a lot of bad advice, BTW!), but the articles are much less filler-like, and much less often info-mercial-like. Written by real enthusiasts -- that dying breed -- rather than professional journalists.
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Old 18-01-2015, 13:11   #850
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Ahh... you mean the guys who belong to all the right Royal Yacht Clubs..
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Old 18-01-2015, 15:38   #851
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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And becouse it was in the internet it has to be true...
Well, there are on the internet credible people other not. I have a huge admiration and respect by Sven Yrvind as a sailor and as a person. It is not internet that deserves me credibility but him.

That was posted by him on him on his site (at the time) and I have no reason to believe that is not true, quite the opposite. Why do you think it is not true? Do you doubt him or is credibility? Do you have any reason for that?

Sven Yrvind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 18-01-2015, 16:12   #852
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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...

My favorite, by the way, is Yachting Monthly from the UK; far superior to anything we have in the U.S. Still full of a lot of carp (and a lot of bad advice, BTW!), but the articles are much less filler-like, and much less often info-mercial-like. Written by real enthusiasts -- that dying breed -- rather than professional journalists.
I don't think you have understood what I was talking about, that's not the boat of the year of a magazine but from :

.. “European Powerboat of the Year”. The jury comprises the test directors and editors-in-chief of Europe’s nineteen leading yachting and powerboat magazines".

Not all of them are sailing magazines and test sailboats but most are. One for country, "Yachting world" is one of them. In what regards quality is not a bad magazine but "Yacht.de" or "Voile and Voiliers" (French and Geman representatives are better. The boats are tested all at the same time by all testers on two different locations in two different testing sessions.

I guess you guys are to much used about the lack of objectivity on boat testing on US magazines. European ones are far better and impartial. They have a lot of competition and if they are not accurate in what regards testing readers just change of magazine (most countries have several sailing magazines).

There are also other difference, look at the price of internet magazine on Zinio. American sailing magazines cost almost nothing, European Magazines cost 5 times more. The reason is simple, American magazines live much more on publicity than European ones and that certainly has a cost in their accuracy in what regards testing objectively sailboats.
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Old 18-01-2015, 16:18   #853
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Interesting thread.... Now here is a thought.... Follow the old Whitbread route.... to test the capability of ones 'offshore' yacht...
I know of 'some' production yachts that have done it a few times... or is that not the 'offshore' that is being discussed?
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Old 18-01-2015, 16:30   #854
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I don't think you have understood what I was talking about, that's not the boat of the year of a magazine but from :



.. “European Powerboat of the Year”. The jury comprises the test directors and editors-in-chief of Europe’s nineteen leading yachting and powerboat magazines".



Not all of them are sailing magazines and test sailboats but most are. One for country, "Yachting world" is one of them. In what regards quality is not a bad magazine but "Yacht.de" or "Voile and Voiliers" (French and Geman representatives are better. The boats are tested all at the same time by all testers on two different locations in two different testing sessions.



I guess you guys are to much used about the lack of objectivity on boat testing on US magazines. European ones are far better and impartial. They have a lot of competition and if they are not accurate in what regards testing readers just change of magazine (most countries have several sailing magazines).



There are also other difference, look at the price of internet magazine on Zinio. American sailing magazines cost almost nothing, European Magazines cost 5 times more. The reason is simple, American magazines live much more on publicity than European ones and that certainly has a cost in their accuracy in what regards testing objectively sailboats.

Polux, I can decide if you are just stubborn or naive. Your knowledge of American magazines is also limited. European sailing magazines are similar to mainstream US ones.. The journalist are members of the " marine industry ", they understand the " hand that feeds them "

If you take exemplary magazines like water sailing">blue water sailing , ocean navigator , wooden boat, practical sailor , etc you'll realise that there are truelu excellent magazines that cover stuff never covered in European mags , because specialist magazines can't survive in Europe due to the language barrier.

I have no doubt you beleive all these people are of the highest integrity. , and yes they mostly are, but they are not impartial per se. I had the pleasure of meeting late Geoff Pack , and also Tom Cunliffe , both worked within the " industry " , both knew how the system worked.



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Old 18-01-2015, 16:34   #855
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Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Interesting thread.... Now here is a thought.... Follow the old Whitbread route.... to test the capability of ones 'offshore' yacht...
I know of 'some' production yachts that have done it a few times... or is that not the 'offshore' that is being discussed?

Since most users don't sail that route or anything near it , it would be like buying a car cause it successfully did the paris Dakar rally or something

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